submeta 2019-07-04 10:27 UTC link

Finally! It took four years to admit there is something wrong. And one more year to change upcoming laptops. - It‘s unbelievable how this crap could be released. Coming from a ThinkPad to a MBP in 2015 I was even disappointed by the keyboard of the MBP 2015. Then switching to a MBP 2018 I was shocked how much worse things could get (for the sake of thinness?)

dougmwne 2019-07-04 10:29 UTC link

Thank goodness. MacBooks are the best laptops in many respects, but I had to cross them off the buy list due to the keyboard. I understand it's controversial, but for me I've spent plenty of time using the butterfly keyboard and it just doesn't feel comfortable to me. And I'm not some mechanical keyboard purist, actually my favorite keyboard of all time was the previous chicklet keyboard. A runner up for me is a travel Bluetooth keyboard with round keys that Logitech makes.

kenneth 2019-07-04 10:46 UTC link

Once I got used to the new keyboards, I actually far prefer them. Ditto with the TouchBar. Yeah, I'm a heretic I suppose.

Keyboard: pleasant clicky-ness and little movement required. Thin AF.

TouchBar: customized with BetterTouchTools to be a hybrid of my most often-used shortcuts (expand menu, alfred, fantastical, window management, and 1password on the left, notification center and lock screen on the right) and music controls with gestures in the middle: shows current track, can change volume, switch tracks, play/pause, mute, or tap into a submenu to pull up most frequent playlists and add current songs to my library. Way better than using the function keys of old.

Oh and the escape key… long remapped to caps lock. If I really need caps lock, fn + caps lock key toggles it.

sjwright 2019-07-04 10:55 UTC link

That's good news—for the people who are buying laptops next year.

Hopefully the return to scissor switches is combined with some improvements to the touch bar. My suggestion to Apple would be: put a small physical ESC key on the far left of the touch bar on 13 inch models, and include both physical F-keys AND a touch bar on the larger models.

Bonus points: allow people to choose classic F-keys on the 13 inch models as a BTO option.

d3ckard 2019-07-04 10:59 UTC link

Don't understand the problem. I like new keyboard more than the previous one, I'm indifferent to touchbar and mapping escape to capslock was the best thing ever. The only thing I hate is keys getting stuck, but it actually stopped happening(2017 model). I wouldn't like to come back to old keyboard now.

JDiculous 2019-07-04 11:18 UTC link

Great, the butterfly keys were an enormous downgrade in terms of comfort, and one of the reasons I sold my 2017 Macbook Pro.

But will they still keep that awful touchbar where the Esc and F1-12 are supposed to be? Then I'll still be passing.

throwaway9d0291 2019-07-04 11:25 UTC link

Now just get rid of the touchbar and I'll consider using a Mac again.

dkersten 2019-07-04 11:41 UTC link

Too late for me. I've already jumped ship and the effort of moving back isn't worth it. I still have and use apple products, but I've no interest in buying any more now, thanks to the shoddy experience I had with their more recent products. I also have no interest in airpods, so a new iphone is out too. Apple won me over quite late and then within about two years lost me again. It made me sad, because I really liked their products during that time, especially the multi-device experience, but I now already use too many non-Apple devices for that to matter and don't care anymore now.

forgingahead 2019-07-04 11:49 UTC link

Great! Now all they need to do is bring back MagSafe and 2 USB ports and all will be well again

Perceptes 2019-07-04 12:43 UTC link

I desperately hope this is true. I have the first MacBook Pro that came with the Touch Bar, and it's the worst computer I've ever owned. The keyboard has failed twice, and the Touch Bar is inferior to the old hardware keys in every way. I hate it. The only reason I got it is because the MacBook Air it replaced was dying and I couldn't wait any more. Assuming this report is true, my only remaining worry is that they won't offer a version of this new Pro without a Touch Bar, or that only a model with a smaller display will offer hardware function keys, like they've done in the past.

suprgeek 2019-07-04 13:16 UTC link

Finally! Now please also admit that the TouchBar is a colossal failure that only a few niche users grew to like and either:

1) Ditch it completely - return the Fn key row back but add button for Touch Id (a. la the new MacBook Air) OR

2) Invent a better version with Haptic Feedback so that Touch typists get a FEEL for hitting keys instead of moronically having to look down to ensure that they did not F* things up

rev12 2019-07-04 13:17 UTC link

It seems like there are two camps of people:

Those who are very pleased to hear they will be backpedaling on their updated keyboard designs.

Those who "don't understand" because they actually like the new keyboards (and the TouchBar even).

No matter where you stand, the new keyboards are highly controversial and divisive, and that's not good. The old keyboards didn't put people into opposing sides, they just were there. Sure people compared them to other manufacturer keyboards, sometimes for the worse and other times for the better, but it wasn't a hate or love relationship by the user base. There was no "getting used to it," it was just a keyboard.

I look forward to a return to a non controversial, highly usable and widely accepted as "fine", keyboard. I hope that's what we get.

patrec 2019-07-04 13:25 UTC link

Apart from reliability concerns (mine hasn't failed yet), the macbook 12" butterfly incarnation has become my favorite mobile keyboard now. Other keyboards, like my old-gen macbook pro feel mushy in comparison now, and at least for the ultra-svelte macbook 12" the obsession with thinness and lightness does pay off. I wonder if we will see a wave of butterfly nostalgia when the new design comes out.

RayVR 2019-07-04 13:31 UTC link

Having used the 2018 MacBook Air for about 3 months now, I can say I really detest it and I would return it if that were possible.

1) the keyboard. This thing really feels like slamming your fingers into a metal slab. I think my iPad Pro keyboard is better. The MacBook Air keyboard is also very loud. For something with so little depth the sound is shocking.

2) the webcam. Total garbage. In a laptop this expensive I think this is inexcusable. my old ipad has a significantly better camera for video calls so I’m not carrying around both. Ridiculous.

3) the new charger is so much worse than I could have expected. The lack of MagSafe I knew about, thought it would be ok. Really a big loss. There’s also something wrong with the cable. It’s constantly getting kinks/twists in the wiring which I can’t straighten out, even though I baby it.

If they release a new MacBook Air this year I’ll definitely feel a bit betrayed. Like they knowingly released something that was a stop-gap PoS.

b3b0p 2019-07-04 13:47 UTC link

I think I'm definitely in the minority here on this community, but I actually don't mind the keyboard and TouchBar.

The keyboard, although not as good as my Thinkpad, is far superior to many still and not bad. The problem I have with the keyboard is that it's not a user replaceable part and is nigh impossible to replace. Since it's the most used component arguably and wears and has moving parts and is exposed to the real world being able to for example like my Thinkpad of past take it out or replace it or clean it. Similar case could be said for the battery.

The Touch Bar I don't mind and like. Mapping the Esc key to caps lock works better for me anyway since I have small hands with short reach. I look at it as an evolution of the finger print reader you would often see in previous years on other laptops. Plus, it's programmable, which you would think the creative and entrepreneur bunch here would love and find many hacks and ways to take advantage of. I guess not.

I do look forward to any changes Apple decides though. The only Apple keyboard and computer I hated was the Titanium PowerBook. The keyboard on that and the fragility of the whole computer was terrible. My favorite so far as been the Aluminum PowerBook G4 12 and 17. Followed by the first MacBook Pro.

aleem 2019-07-04 14:13 UTC link

Apple has squandered a lot of its goodwill. It reminds me of my relationship with Microsoft products. As long as they were shipping, they were making money in the short term because people were coerced to buy in.

For 5 damn years the Air didn't get a Retina display. Right now, I can't buy 2.8Ghz Macbook Pro unless I get the TouchBar. I can't buy an Air unless I settle for much lower specs.

The dongles and USB-C are a mess. The 2-meters-at-most charging cables are a downgrade which will mean shorter battery life due to lesser plugging in. The lack of Magsafe is a downgrade, they removed a feature. The lack of any port variety which my 2013 Macbook Air did exceedingly well is a major downgrade. Consumers must carry a variety of dongles because the laptops don't offer a variety of ports.

Profits are fine as long as they don't lead to perverse behavior. Apple needs to stop playing these fucking games and ship some pragmatism.

The Apple of Cook is reminiscent of the Microsoft of Ballmer. He is totally out of touch with the product -- the very thing that Jobs inculcated.

lajawfe 2019-07-04 14:49 UTC link

I can't stop but speculate if departure of Ive had anything to do with this. I guess there was a lot of push-back internally about this, but because of Ive, they had to endure 4 generations of butterfly switches. Touchbar also is just a resource hog for nothing extraordinarily useful. I haven't seen people use it too often. I bet they did user studies and found out that the Touchbar wasn't the new interaction method they hoped it would be. And now, they are planning to introduce new macs without them. I bet Ive feels bad about having to see his decisions being rolled back. Anyway, I hope the rumored 16' Macbook pro actually caters to the professionals by prioritizing thermals over thinness, and if one can wish, it would be nice if Magsafe could ride this rollback train.

hownottowrite 2019-07-04 15:00 UTC link

My late 2017 MacBook Pro just started exhibiting signs of the butterfly effect. Not looking forward to giving up the machine for a couple days only to have it fail again. For me, the touchbar is also useless except as an annoying feature that tries to reactivate Siri or suddenly creates a new document when I overkey. Such a poor design.

It’s sad because other than the fact that I hate it I actually love the machine.

blauditore 2019-07-04 15:23 UTC link

I see many people complain about Apple products recently, but very few actually moving away to alternatives. It seems many are caught in the comfort zone of that walled garden, not to say locked in. This is why I started avoiding Apple products many years ago. Watching things evolve "from the outside" now I find it sad and funny at the same time.

shawkinaw 2019-07-04 15:30 UTC link

Am I the only person who likes the butterfly keyboard? I like the feel of the low travel and the clickiness, whenever I use an old style MacBook the keys feel mushy.

I have had reliability problems though. Mostly I’ve had keys that don’t respond, but have always been able to fix those with compressed air. But once I had a sticky key that popped every other time I pressed it, that required a free Apple repair.

kossae 2019-07-04 10:31 UTC link

What’s wrong with the 2015? That’s the last good version of the keyboard IMO.

whywhywhywhy 2019-07-04 10:46 UTC link

> Finally! It took four years to admit there is something wrong. And one more year to change upcoming laptops

I think they admitted something was wrong as soon as they created the replacement program, it's just they have been completely unwilling to alter their planned product schedule to fix it early. When they create a laptop design they expect to be able to ship the same basic chassis design for 3-4 years and in this design the keyboard and chassis are so entwined they're literally bolted together.

We're getting a new non-Pro design revision with it fixed right on schedule and the Pro isn't scheduled to redesign till next year so we get the fix then. Both these fixes could have been in the market 1-2 years ago if they company truly wanted it.

They just decided it either wasn't worth the money, or wasn't worth changing their cadence to fix it early. Just don't think they have much respect for their Mac customers anymore and know they'll stick around.

dewey 2019-07-04 10:48 UTC link

The problem that most people have is not with how it feels, it's how unreliable it is with buttons failing or missing keystrokes. Sometimes only caused by a spec of dust.

Getting used to the feeling of the flatter keyboard isn't really an issue for most people.

onion2k 2019-07-04 10:48 UTC link

In code the reason we don't do wholesale rewrites of complicated systems very often is because while there are bugs in the current system they're known quantities; going back to the drawing board and starting from scratch results in a newer, better, but unknown system with unknown bugs. That might be worse. It's a massive risk.

This is true for Apple's new keyboard too. We can't automatically assume it's better than the existing one, or that it has no issues. It's an unknown. For all we know a new keyboard might be even worse than the current one. Hopefully Apple will have learned from their mistakes but whether or not they've corrected all the problems or introduced new problems is something we can't know.

It's good that Apple appear to be listening and are trying to fix the problem (if that's the reason for the new keyboard) but I won't be rushing out to buy one for a while.

WAHa_06x36 2019-07-04 11:04 UTC link

The problem with the design is that it breaks, not that it is otherwise bad. I prefer it over the older design, as do many others.

WAHa_06x36 2019-07-04 11:05 UTC link

The problem is that the keyboard breaks very easily, at random.

adwi 2019-07-04 11:10 UTC link

Feel the same—but I’d probably feel differently if I had a keyboard failure, especially before the free repair program.

Going back to the previous generation feels mushy now...

mrweasel 2019-07-04 12:07 UTC link

I would love to see Apple make the touch bar an option. If Apple sold two identical MacBooks models, except for the touch bar, my guess would be that they would sell significantly more units without the touch bar.

Is anyone seriously benefiting from the touch bar or even using it for anything other than as a gimmick?

megablast 2019-07-04 12:36 UTC link

> and 2 USB ports and all will be well again

The pro has 4 usb ports.

vr46 2019-07-04 12:36 UTC link

I have a personal 2015 MBP but my current client has provided me with a 2018 MBP. Despite being a Vim user, I’ve discovered that the Touch ID allows me to shut my laptop more often due to the quick login, rather than it being an always open distraction. (I work from books and paper a lot). This is not applicable to many others, I’m sure, but I’ve found a new way of using the laptop as a result: as yet another tool and not the dominant one.

worldsayshi 2019-07-04 12:45 UTC link

Yeah, I was very sceptical about both the keyboard and the touch bar until I actually got a new MBP for work. Now it's my favorite keyboard. Less effort pushing the keys seem to always mean swifter typing.

robertAngst 2019-07-04 12:48 UTC link

> MacBooks are the best laptops in many respects

I've never heard this before.

I thought some people needed their proprietary software that could only be run on Apple products, and that is what forces someone to buy a Macbook.

What are they best in class for?

EDIT: Thank you for the serious responses

worldsayshi 2019-07-04 12:49 UTC link

Have you actually used it though? I find it kind of useful. Not super useful but at least slightly more useful than gimmicky.

rikkus 2019-07-04 12:54 UTC link

I had a loaner Touchbar-equipped MBP as my daily driver for a couple of months.

I already had Caps Lock mapped to Ctrl. I used Karabiner Elements to map a Caps Lock press to Escape. It took about a day to get used to.

I’ve managed to get a 2015 model back now, but I’m sticking with Caps Lock press = Escape.

I miss the fingerprint reader!

shurcooL 2019-07-04 12:56 UTC link

> Oh and the escape key… long remapped to caps lock. If I really need caps lock, fn + caps lock key toggles it.

I've remapped escape to caps lock too, but how do you get fn + caps lock to toggle caps lock?

dominostars 2019-07-04 13:00 UTC link

I’m still using my 2012 MacBook Pro desperately hoping they release a new 15-inch line without the Touch Bar. I had bought a MacBook pro with the Touch Bar and after a few weeks I just hated it more and more and returned it.

I’m still mad about them ditching MagSafe but I can get over that at least.

wmeredith 2019-07-04 13:21 UTC link

This is the real point. A keyboard IS AN INTERFACE. The point of it is to move information between two things: the computer and me. It is a means. If I notice it at all, that’s a negative.

Octoth0rpe 2019-07-04 13:23 UTC link

> The old keyboards didn't put people into opposing sides, they just were there.

Have you ever spoken to a thinkpad advocate re: chiclet keyboards? The previous mac keyboards were absolutely controversial. It took years for the previous keyboard to be 'just a keyboard', which I do acknowledge happened.

> I look forward to a return to a non controversial, highly usable and widely accepted as "fine", keyboard.

Honestly, this will never happen for two reasons:

1) people's needs are diverse enough where that's simply an impossible job. I happen to _really_ like the current apple keyboards, but the reliability is bad enough for me to want a change. The consensus where I work (100ish mac laptops) is that the keyboard is awful. Someone is going to be unhappy, and it sounds like it might be me :(

2) There's some segment of the technology world (non-unix people?) that will latch onto any criticism of apple - fair/deserved or not - and shout it endlessly.

FabHK 2019-07-04 13:40 UTC link

> I have the first MacBook Pro that came with the Touch Bar, and it's the worst computer I've ever owned.

Same here (well, I have the "cheap" one without the Touch Bar). Everything has been replaced at least once (on Apple Care, fortunately) except the bottom plate.

> The only reason I got it is because the MacBook Air it replaced was dying

Same here. That MBA was a fine machine.

bad_user 2019-07-04 13:51 UTC link

> Mapping the Esc key to caps lock works better for me

I'm mapping Caps Lock to Control, because it's way more useful. Yes, I'm an Emacs user primarily, but I know Vim users that do the same.

You can't remap Caps Lock twice.

And what will happen when Caps Lock itself will be gone?

jen20 2019-07-04 13:54 UTC link

We likely are in the minority, but I find the 2016-19 era MacBook Pro to be the only laptop I can comfortably type on all day without triggering RSI pain. I also make extensive use of the Touch Bar. I will think twice about buying an updated machine.

eqtn 2019-07-04 13:54 UTC link

The new keyboard is less wobbly than the old keyboard. It would have been an awesome keyboard, if there is little more travel and they had completely fix the keys getting stuck issue. Maybe returning back to the scissor keys confirms that there isn't a solution yet.

matwood 2019-07-04 13:55 UTC link

I agree with you. I like the new keyboard, as long as it's reliable. After using the new keyboard for awhile I certainly do not want to go back. Hopefully the new keyboard keeps the current feel while fixing the reliability issues.

ragerino 2019-07-04 14:06 UTC link

I love my Carbon X1, especially because of it's excellent keyboard. Unfortunatly the same can not be said about it's touchpad which causes constantly accidental clicks while typing.

A combination of Lenovo's keyboard and Apple's touchpad would make a strong combination.

orev 2019-07-04 14:17 UTC link

At least for the magsafe thing you can buy USB-C magnetic adapters like the “CONMDEX USB C Magnetic Adapter”. Doesn’t address the other major shortcomings, but it’s a small win.

parasubvert 2019-07-04 14:27 UTC link

See, I use a retina MBP touchbar and really don't agree. Apple has made some missteps but it's still the best pro laptop for my uses. Over two years with one replaced keyboard (because I spilled wine on it!) and no sticking keys.

USB-C is awesome. I can reuse all my 3rd party and Apple adapters for my USB-C peripherals, including tablets and the Nintendo Switch. In retrospect, Magsafe wasn't that great (comes off too easily). Moving back to older USB ports really would make no sense. They're obsolete. If you have older peripherals, get the dongles. We've been using dongles since the VGA/DVI days or Serial/USB days, so I really don't get the problem with them. Life moves on.

I have a need for HDMI and VGA and Mini DisplayPort and old USB... not to mention lightning. MUCH rather would have a single standard of multi-port w/ dongles than a mess of fixed ports.

Also, on what planet did anyone have a Magsafe cord over 2m? It was fixed to the adapter. The 2m usb-c cable is removable, add it with the 1m (edit: 2m!) power cable and it is a further reach than any prior Mac laptop adapter I've had, though I suppose third party ones exist.

brianpgordon 2019-07-04 14:32 UTC link

How is "little movement required" a good thing though? Having a healthy amount of key travel makes typing a lot more comfortable. I'm not impressed by thinness either. Laptops are thin enough to be functional. When Apple says "our new keyboard design is 40% thinner" it's a non sequitur. The question should be whether it's better, not whether it's thinner. That should attract ridicule like if an energy drink advertised: "Our formula is now 11% more dense!" Like, I'm sure their flavor scientists are aware of the density but that's a random and bizarre data point to be bragging about publicly.

vimslayer 2019-07-04 14:48 UTC link

What are you using now? I have a ThinkPad T470p and really like it. The keyboard feels really great, although the fn key placement is a bit annoying.

pier25 2019-07-04 15:03 UTC link

> Like they knowingly released something that was a stop-gap PoS.

That happened with the iPad 3. It was replaced 6 months later since its SOC was totally underpowered for its retina display.

Zenst 2019-07-04 15:08 UTC link

Yes, removing magsafe was regression. They could (or somebody could) do a magsafe adapter for them perhaps.

But this fetish to produce the smallest - we saw this before with mobile in the early day and that ended with what got affectionately known as the mars bar phone, then things got sane again.

But with laptops it is different - what we effectively have is - hey look at our new cool smaller and lighter laptop. Don't look at the now heavier, larger bag of adapter and accessories you now need to carry so you may use it as you intended.

Why their consumer base puts up with it makes no sense until you view the core of them as you view religion. Almost case for many that if Apple says jump, they jump. [EDIT ADD] This: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEERq5tLiOY maybe sums it up :).

I like you comparision of Cook, maybe we will get a video of him one day doing a parody of Ballmer's infamous developers developers developers speech, with smaller smaller smaller. Maybe that has already happened - nobody would be supprised.

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