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+0.38 Classical statues were not painted horribly (worksinprogress.co)
631 points by bensouthwood 70 days ago | 332 comments on HN | Neutral Editorial · v3.7 ·
Summary Cultural Heritage & Free Expression Advocates
This art history essay examines whether poorly executed reconstructions, rather than differing ancient taste, explain modern negative responses to colored classical sculptures. The content positively engages with Article 19 (free expression) through sustained scholarly argument challenging expert consensus with evidence, Article 27 (cultural participation) through detailed heritage analysis and comparative cultural study, and Article 12 (privacy) through structural policy disclosure.
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Weighted Mean +0.38 Unweighted Mean +0.36
Max +0.56 Article 19 Min 0.00 Preamble
Signal 5 No Data 26
Confidence 14% Volatility 0.21 (Medium)
Negative 0 Channels E: 0.6 S: 0.4
SETL +0.22 Editorial-dominant
FW Ratio 56% 14 facts · 11 inferences
Evidence: High: 3 Medium: 2 Low: 0 No Data: 26
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Foundation Security Legal Privacy & Movement Personal Expression Economic & Social Cultural Order & Duties Foundation: 0.00 (1 articles) Security: 0.00 (0 articles) Legal: 0.00 (0 articles) Privacy & Movement: 0.30 (1 articles) Personal: 0.00 (0 articles) Expression: 0.56 (1 articles) Economic & Social: 0.00 (0 articles) Cultural: 0.46 (2 articles) Order & Duties: 0.00 (0 articles)
HN Discussion 20 top-level · 30 replies
esperent 2025-12-18 13:26 UTC link
I've literally never heard anyone say that classical statues were painted "horribly", and unless I missed it, there's no sources in this article that say that, either (just several links to the same New Yorker article talking about whiteness).

What I've always heard is that classical statues were painted "brightly".

So, is this something that's so well known in the study of antiquities that no source was required, or has the author just got a personal bugbear here?

numlocked 2025-12-18 13:33 UTC link
Good read! The idea that these marvels of artistry were painted like my 10th birthday at the local paint-your-own-pottery store always seemed incongruous, at best.

> Why, then, are the reconstructions so ugly?

> ...may be that they are hampered by conservation doctrines that forbid including any feature in a reconstruction for which there is no direct archaeological evidence. Since underlayers are generally the only element of which traces survive, such doctrines lead to all-underlayer reconstructions, with the overlayers that were obviously originally present excluded for lack of evidence.

That seems plausible -- and somewhat reasonable! To the credit of academics, they seems aware of this (according to the article):

> ‘reconstructions can be difficult to explain to the public – that these are not exact copies, that we can never know exactly how they looked’.

dv_dt 2025-12-18 13:34 UTC link
It seems a shame that there is a gap between the limits of what is possible to deduce from direct evidence, and what is likely possible given human ability. And further that the public viewing the reconstructions doesn't take away the subtleties of the difference. To me it's unlikely that some of these works weren't vastly better works of art created by what were likely master artists and craftsfolk of the day.

One way to close that gap would be to offer interpretations to be painted by modern artists to show what was possible and a viewing public could view a range of the conservative evidence based looks, and maybe a celebration of what human artistic ability can offer.

rwmj 2025-12-18 13:41 UTC link
His final conclusion is terrible and spoils an otherwise excellent article. Unless he has really strong evidence of it, the specialists are very unlikely to be "trolling" the public. They are scientists and conservators doing their best, working away in museum backrooms.
buescher 2025-12-18 13:48 UTC link
I think the best explanation is that classicists are not makeup artists. I am reminded of reading some classicists' attempt to create garum in the kitchen by making some unpleasant horror of mashed fish or something back in the eighties or nineties. No one ever mentioned in those kinds of write-ups back then that they still make fish sauce in Italy. (I looked for the source I'm thinking of and it's drowned out by more credible modern attempts). There's a tendency the further north you go to think of the classical world as completely lost, discontinuous, and opaque to us, too, which adds to it.
bluGill 2025-12-18 14:02 UTC link
One issue: the paints/pigments available in times past were not the full range we have today. Sometimes they had to make things somewhat ugly to both our and their taste because that is all they have available. They would still have done their best, but there are limits.

We are hampered even more today because blues and greens tend to be sourced from organic materials that decay quick, while reds and browns are from minerals that don't decay (but flake off). Even in the best preserved art that we have there is still likely significant differences between what we see and what they saw because of this color change.

DuperPower 2025-12-18 14:09 UTC link
Loved the article, the author is a smart person to doubt the changing taste hypothesis, I think everything based on "we are smarter and have better taste that the ancients" have to be extremely doubted, knowing we, the west, are the same society since the romans is so humbling
Geonode 2025-12-18 14:10 UTC link
I will die on this hill, because I'm right. Painters put on the first layer in saturated colors like this, then add detail, highlight and shadow. The base layer stuck to the statues, and the rest was washed away.

This whole thing just won't go away because many people are operating outside their area of expertise on this subject.

Painters layer paint, starting with a saturated base color. These archaeologists are simply looking at the paint that was left in the crevices.

andrewl 2025-12-18 14:24 UTC link
One idea of how ancient statues might have been colored can be seen on the pediment of the Philadelphia Museum of Art:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pediment,_Philly_Art...

rob74 2025-12-18 14:33 UTC link
> But they fail to correct the belief that people naturally form given what is placed before them: that the proffered reconstruction of ancient sculpture is roughly what ancient sculpture actually looked like.

I'm pretty sure many museums with reconstructions of classical statues have a note on this topic somewhere on a plaque beside the statues - but who reads those?

arrrg 2025-12-18 14:58 UTC link
Did he talk to people who make those reconstructions?

Why speculate from that outside perspective when you could talk to people who worked on them and the decisions they made. I think that would be very interesting. As is that‘s completely missing and it feels a bit like aimless speculation and stuff that could be answered by just talking to the people making those reconstructions. My experience is that people doing scientific work love talking about it and all the difficult nuances and trade offs there are.

CGMthrowaway 2025-12-18 15:01 UTC link
You know what's crazy too is that in colonial America all the brick buildings you see in Boston, etc were also all painted? Well, limewashed technically. You never would have left a bare brick facade. You would put 10-20 coats of thin whitewash on it, or if you wanted it to look like raw brick you would tint the limewash red, and then go in and touch up the mortar lines trompe l'oeil style with white.

Bare brick as an aesthetic choice did not emerge until the late 19th century.

somenameforme 2025-12-18 15:28 UTC link
This reminds me of efforts to reproduce Ancient Greek music. [1] It's very similar in that there's a lot of hints, but still enough missing parts that there seem to be two schools of thought, that can even present within the same project. That linked audio is unpleasant, but perhaps they just liked it? Yet, this solo [2], comes from the exact same project - and is amazing.

I do not think tastes can change to such a degree that that first link would ever be pleasant to listen to, though that itself could be intentional for theatrical, theological, or other such purposes. Music seems innate to humanity - children generally start 'dancing' of sorts to music, 100% on their own, before their first birthday, long before they can speak or usually even walk!

The thing is that even if we do not personally like some form of music, I think we can still appreciate it. The Chinese guqin [3] is my favorite example - it goes back at least 3000 years, is played in a fashion completely outside the character of modern music - to say nothing of Western musical tradition as a whole, and yet nonetheless sounds amazing and relaxing even to a completely foreign ear.

Culture and tastes may change, but I think our ability to appreciate (or be repelled) by things is fairly consistent.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hOK7bU0S1Y

[2] - https://youtu.be/UAmuQBnNty8?t=540

[3] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ninn-CfAMy8

delis-thumbs-7e 2025-12-18 15:31 UTC link
Some of the best surviving examples of greco-roman use of colour are from Pompei. You can go and look at them yourselves, the Museo Archeologico in Napoli is a fantastic place to visit: https://www.museoarcheologiconapoli.it/en/portfolio-item/tem...

All the garish colours were prob heavily muted or diluted with varnish/oil. You don’t pant an artwork like a house, it is a layered technique and fairly similar to historic painting techniques used today:

https://emptyeasel.com/2014/12/02/how-to-paint-using-the-fle...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grisaille

tokai 2025-12-18 15:45 UTC link
Just as classicists might not be the best painters, metaphysics should stay out of criticizing methodology. Ralph seems completely clueless of the research literature, and is basing his whole argument on vibes from looking at some pictures. Ridiculous.
langleyi 2025-12-18 16:31 UTC link
A thought I had halfway through reading this article: if, hypothetically, early Medieval European art had been lost, how would it be reconstructed by modern scholars?

Would they accurately capture the lack of 'naturalism' (i.e. that flat, almost cartoonish quality) that often strikes modern viewers of Medieval art, or would they make it 'better', interpolating the gap between Roman and Renaissance styles?

This article hints at the idea that classical sculpture can't have been painted like that, because _it looks bad_ and Romans couldn't possibly have thought it looked good, yet early Medieval art was — presumably — perfectly acceptable to the tastemakers of Medieval Europe.

yosefk 2025-12-18 17:11 UTC link
"Why, then, are the reconstructions so ugly? One factor may be that the specialists who execute them lack the skill of classical artists, who had many years of training in a great tradition."

Has he ever met people doing this stuff?.. Why write about something you know so little about? Why do people think that they can talk about things without experience, based on abstract reasoning?

renewiltord 2025-12-18 18:01 UTC link
I think this is just one of those instances where historians go for “most justifiable” vs. “most likely”. E.g. all dinosaurs were stretched skin, fatless, featherless because that’s the minimum thing that fits the evidence.

Likewise, where there is paint these guys have recreated it so. But over time we will find that there were more layers more likely to fail over time and so on.

austern 2025-12-18 22:44 UTC link
I saw the traveling _Gods in Color_ exhibit when it came to San Francisco, which is where some or all of the images in this article come from. I don't think the exhibit glossed over the fact that these reconstructions are speculative, and that we can't know for sure what the originals looked like.

One quote I remember from the exhibit, which I looked up to make sure I got the wording right, was an anecdote about one of the most famous Greek sculptors, as recorded by Pliny: "When asked which of his works in marble he liked the most, Praxiteles used to say: ‘Those to which Nikias has set his hand’—so highly did he esteem his coloring of the surface."

One takeaway from that quote is the obvious: one reason we know that ancient statues were painted is that ancient authors said so. Another takeaway is that the painters, not just the sculptors, were famous, and the ancients recognized that some were better than others.

TacticalCoder 2025-12-18 22:54 UTC link
> It is often suggested that modern viewers dislike painted reconstructions of Greek and Roman statues because our taste differs from that of the ancients.

Yeah. I cannot thank enough those other ancients who dug up all statues and assumed they were all white.

I'm thinking about Michelangelo's The Pieta and oh so many others. Call it a lucky accident or "differing taste" or "mastering new techniques" or whatever you want, I take Michelangelo's The Pieta vs these "correctly re-colored" statues from early Rome any time.

Even once it's been fully known they used to be flashy, hardly anyone started sculpting masterpiece then asking kids to color them: I'm thinking about late 19th Rodin's The Kiss for example.

Just like our usage of the toilets, our taste evolved, not differed.

sebastianmestre 2025-12-18 13:42 UTC link
I think the pictures of the reconstructions are source enough, they look horrible
qsort 2025-12-18 13:46 UTC link
I believe the argument isn't that ancient statues were ugly, but rather that reconstructions are ugly (unfortunately this has been used to argue against the now ascertained fact that ancient statues were indeed painted). Purely subjective judgement from someone not trained in the arts: that photo of the Augusto di Prima Porta doesn't look like a great paint-job. The idea that, like the statue itself, the painting must instead have been a great work of art lost to time seems solid to me.
pmichaud 2025-12-18 13:48 UTC link
It made immediate sense to me, since the painted statues do, in fact, look gaudy and horrible. I think he was evoking a widely held feeling that is bot in common knowledge.
wongarsu 2025-12-18 13:49 UTC link
"trolling" in this instance seems to be a nicer way of saying "misleading to create attention". It's hard to deny that "look at how garish these beautiful statures originally looked" created a lot more attention than a theoretical "Roman statues looked pretty nice, but with paint"

It's an unsubstantiated theory, but the author does go out of their way to say that this might not even be objectionable, if it happened at all

sdenton4 2025-12-18 14:00 UTC link
If only there were some system that could start from some sparse and noisy observations and weave together a plausible completion...
mc32 2025-12-18 14:06 UTC link
Another thing is they may have wanted to use newly available colors to show they had new colors -the novelty aspect. Kind of like when people learned to make aluminum it was sought as a luxury item —whereas now no one would think of aluminum as a luxury item.
mopsi 2025-12-18 14:07 UTC link

  > They are scientists and conservators doing their best
Perhaps they're simply the wrong people for this problem? I'd very much prefer to see how artists would approach painting the figures, instead of scientists and conservators. Give them the tools that were available at the time and let them do their best.

Even if tastes have indeed changed, something that matches our current taste will reproduce the impact of the statues better than a scientifically meticulous and factually accurate depiction that misses the emotional truth.

fsloth 2025-12-18 14:17 UTC link
"many people are operating outside their area of expertise on this subject."

Exactly. I takes years of really hard work to get good at this stuff. Decades.

I do realize research budgets are not that awesome, but when claims are of aesthetic in nature (explicitly and implicitly) and deal with human craftmanship there should definetly be collaboration with also craftsmen subject experts.

A good example where this was executed really well was the Notre Dame reconstruction (I _guess_). Craftsmen and academic diligence hand in hand.

Not everyones archeological reproduction has such a budget unfortunately.

marginalia_nu 2025-12-18 14:17 UTC link
Yeah, I've likewise always figured the reason these reconstructions ended up looking so awful is because paint is generally applied in layers (even to this day), so what they're likely reconstructing is the primer layer.

Like we know from Roman frescoes[1] and mosaics[2] that they were pretty skilled painters and solving the problem of how to paint something to have more hues than a King's Quest 3 sprite is unlikely to be an unsolvable aesthetic problem.

[edit] Changed from Secret of Monkey Island since that game has too many versions and remakes.

[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Chiron_i...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_Academy_mosaic#/medi...

chrismatic 2025-12-18 14:20 UTC link
Even worse so: Why does he not simply ask these people? What is it with this trend of sneering at expert decisions without even doing the bare minimum of engaging with them?
emursebrian 2025-12-18 14:20 UTC link
Fish sauce is also really popular in southeast Asia and Worcestershire sauce is often made with fermented fish so can also be considered garum adjacent.
skybrian 2025-12-18 14:31 UTC link
Yes, it’s speculating when it would have been better to do some journalism and ask some experts what they were doing.
empath75 2025-12-18 14:32 UTC link
It's the same problem with trying to reconstruct dinosaurs, with probably the same solution in terms of public communication -- producing a _range_ of possible reconstructions based on the available evidence.

That said -- I think we actually do have more indirect evidence than what the reconstructions used -- in fact 3 separate lines of evidence A) paintings of statues B) contemporary descriptions of statues and C) contemporary paintings in general. All of which suggest that the coloring would have been more subtle and realistic.

I think if we had contemporary paintings of dinosaurs with feathers and contemporary accounts in writing that dinosaurs had feathers, but no feathers in the fossil record, you would still be fairly justified in saying that dinosaurs probably had feathers.

AdmiralAsshat 2025-12-18 14:34 UTC link
> I am reminded of reading some classicists' attempt to create garum in the kitchen by making some unpleasant horror of mashed fish or something back in the eighties or nineties. No one ever mentioned in those kinds of write-ups back then that they still make fish sauce in Italy.

A more modern example might be that recently discovered Babylonian Lamb Stew [0]. Most of the scholarly reconstructions of the stew follow the recipe very literally, and the result is, frankly, awful, because ancient readers would probably have made cultural assumptions about certain steps in the recipe. Meanwhile, some internet cooks who take a stab at the same recipe come up with something arguably much better, because they're applying their knowledge as cooks to guess what might have been stated or unstated by the recipe. [1]

Makes you wonder why no one thought to just take a copy of one of the statues to a modern artist and say, "Hey! How would you paint this?" I'm willing to bet that, even now, it would be reasonably close to how an artist 2000 years ago might have approached it.

[0] https://eatshistory.com/the-oldest-recorded-recipe-babylonia...

[1] https://www.tastinghistory.com/recipes/babylonianlambstew

griffzhowl 2025-12-18 14:35 UTC link
Yes, this is what tfa says, and it's a good point. But tfa also points out that the archaeologists/reconstructionists know that what they're producing differs from the original. The thing is the discipline of reconstruction means that they only use pigments that they have direct evidence of, and this is just the saturated underlayers. The problem is this is seldom explained when the reconstructions are presented to the public
boxed 2025-12-18 14:38 UTC link
It could be survival bias trolling: those who accidentally troll get attention, not understanding that they are trolling.
fwipsy 2025-12-18 14:39 UTC link
This is true, but it wouldn't produce the sort of flat coloring in the reproductions. It would limit the color space but artists could still blend and fade those colors to create intermediate tones. This is demonstrated in some of the beautiful ancient murals which the article uses for comparison.
fwipsy 2025-12-18 14:41 UTC link
I agree it's frustrating, but also fascinating. How many of us would be reading about ancient sculptures today if not for this debate? I wouldn't.
ActivePattern 2025-12-18 14:45 UTC link
I still don't understand is why they don't even make an attempt to apply overlayers, when (as the author notes) there is ample secondary evidence that it would be present. It's not like there isn't already some element of inference and "filling in the blanks" when reconstructing how something was painted from the scant traces of paint that survived.
aylons 2025-12-18 14:49 UTC link
The archaeologists know that and say as much in TFA:

"The paints used in the reconstructions are chemically similar to the trace pigments found on parts of the surface of the originals. However, those pigments formed the underlayer of a finished work to which they bear a very conjectural relationship. Imagine a modern historian trying to reconstruct the Mona Lisa on the basis of a few residual pigments here and there on a largely featureless canvas.

How confident could we be that the result accurately reproduces the original?

This point is not actually disputed by supporters of the reconstructions. For example, Cecilie Brøns, who leads a project on ancient polychromy at the Ny Carlsberg Glyptotek in Copenhagen, praises the reconstructions but notes that ‘reconstructions can be difficult to explain to the public – that these are not exact copies, that we can never know exactly how they looked’."

abbycurtis33 2025-12-18 15:02 UTC link
Wood furniture was elaborately painted with wood grain too.
CGMthrowaway 2025-12-18 15:04 UTC link
> The idea that these marvels of artistry were painted like my 10th birthday at the local paint-your-own-pottery store always seemed incongruous, at best.

Have you seen medieval art though? https://www.artistcloseup.com/blog/explaining-weird-mediaeva...

The technique is quite different from the "old masters" of later periods that we often think of as fine art.

ijk 2025-12-18 15:16 UTC link
Is there a changing taste hypothesis? It's honestly the first time I've heard that suggested as the explanation, versus the more plausible to me idea of reconstruction from incomplete evidence.
delis-thumbs-7e 2025-12-18 15:21 UTC link
This is absolutely not true at all. In physical painting you do not have a colour wheel were you pick colours to slap on. You can create a wash of colours and hues just with Zorn palette. We are taught to use fairly limited palette in oil painting even today, although you can in principle buy every known hue and slap it on - but that is not painting and that won’t produce anything worth the canvas it is painted on.

You don’t need to believe me. Look at Egyptian sculptures that have survived fairly well in the tombs. Or Greek and Roman paintings, some of which have survived quite well and shown in the original article. I spent 3,5h cgoing through the collections of The Archeological Museum of Napoli, and there’s plenty of them. They used muted earth tones like most skilled modern painters would.

JoeAltmaier 2025-12-18 15:47 UTC link
Huh. That's exactly how you make garum - an unpleasant horror of mashed fish. Refer to Max Miller and his spectacularly successful effort to reproduce Garum in his back yard.
nyeah 2025-12-18 15:53 UTC link
I liked the article but this is a very good point.
some_random 2025-12-18 15:57 UTC link
For what it's worth, the "fact" Greco-Roman statues were painted garishly was taught in a packed auditorium to me in an art history gen-ed by a PhD. The specific judgement of painted "horribly" wasn't used but it was obviously incredibly ugly.
pqtyw 2025-12-18 15:59 UTC link
Why would the painting style they used for statues be so massively different from frescoes, mosaics and paintings during the same period, though?
pqtyw 2025-12-18 16:00 UTC link
I fail to understand what's the point in even having those reconstructions there if we are fairly certainly they looked nothing alike the originals. Making them pure white seems less dishonest.
jtr1 2025-12-18 16:15 UTC link
The ending of the article left me feeling he had more of an axe to grind here. The mostly unspoken ideological background is that classical art is often appropriated by proponents of Western chauvinism to demonstrate their supposed innate cultural superiority. Poorly painted reconstructions undermine that image, but it does not mean this was done intentionally. I agree that a more neutral observer would have been interested in learning the thought process of those researchers.
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Article 15 Nationality

No observable engagement with nationality principles.

ND
Article 16 Marriage & Family

No observable engagement with marriage and family principles.

ND
Article 17 Property

No observable engagement with property rights principles.

ND
Article 18 Freedom of Thought

No observable engagement with conscience and religion principles.

ND
Article 20 Assembly & Association

No observable engagement with peaceful assembly principles.

ND
Article 21 Political Participation

No observable engagement with political participation principles.

ND
Article 22 Social Security

No observable engagement with social security principles.

ND
Article 23 Work & Equal Pay

No observable engagement with work and fair conditions principles.

ND
Article 24 Rest & Leisure

No observable engagement with rest and leisure principles.

ND
Article 25 Standard of Living

No observable engagement with health and adequate standard principles.

ND
Article 28 Social & International Order

No observable engagement with social and international order principles.

ND
Article 29 Duties to Community

No observable engagement with community duties principles.

ND
Article 30 No Destruction of Rights

No observable engagement with interpretation limitations principles.

Supplementary Signals
Epistemic Quality
0.72
Propaganda Flags
1 techniques detected
doubt
The article systematically challenges expert reconstructions: 'Nobody...seriously claims that the methods used...guarantee a high degree of accuracy.' It encourages skepticism about scholarly authority, though framed as evidence-based analysis rather than manipulative doubt-sowing.
Solution Orientation
No data
Emotional Tone
No data
Stakeholder Voice
No data
Temporal Framing
No data
Geographic Scope
No data
Complexity
No data
Transparency
No data
Event Timeline 6 events
2026-02-26 12:19 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Classical statues were not painted horribly - -
2026-02-26 12:17 rate_limit OpenRouter rate limited (429) model=llama-3.3-70b - -
2026-02-26 12:16 rate_limit OpenRouter rate limited (429) model=llama-3.3-70b - -
2026-02-26 12:15 rate_limit OpenRouter rate limited (429) model=llama-3.3-70b - -
2026-02-26 09:31 dlq Dead-lettered after 1 attempts: Classical statues were not painted horribly - -
2026-02-26 09:21 credit_exhausted Credit balance too low, retrying in 259s - -
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build 1686d6e+53hr · deployed 2026-02-26 10:15 UTC · evaluated 2026-02-26 12:13:57 UTC