Aggregates

Evidence: High: 1 Medium: 9 Low: 0 No Data: 21

Theme Radar

bnt 2022-05-24 16:48 UTC link

Their honesty should be applauded. Imagine they hired you and then had to fire you in 6 months. Keep in touch with the PM if you liked them and see how they perform in the next 12 months.

codegeek 2022-05-24 17:27 UTC link

The screenshot has the word "bootstrapped" which makes sense. Unless you have free VC money to throw, startups and smaller companies have to really watch their spending and as VC money is drying up (supposedly), this is expected.

Having said that, I think in 2022, there are lot of companies tech and non tech that are still hiring as the demand for tech jobs is a lot more than what we had during 2001 or 2008 crash. You just have to do a bit more homework and effort to get the jobs.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 2022-05-24 17:52 UTC link

Keep in mind that it might be (or might not, impossible to predict) a preemptive decision due to uncertainty, not necessarily due to actual changes they see. A company I worked at when COVID started also had a hiring freeze, but had the best result in years during 2020-2021 due to the market situation.

Ultimately all companies are linked to a market of some sort which in the end can see growth or shrinkage if a crisis comes, you can't do anything about it.

tynpeddler 2022-05-24 18:36 UTC link

I've had meta and microsoft cancel on me. I also went all the way through the interview loop at one company, received very positive feedback but was told that they had decided to close the position without filling it. There's definitely a pullback and it started about 2 months ago.

Update: As of now, about half of the companies I've interviewed with at one level or another, have abruptly halted their process due to economic concerns.

tmaly 2022-05-24 20:03 UTC link

I had a full signed offer to join large semiconductor company designing chips back in 2001. I found out on slashdot before the call that they were giving people a choice to take a payout or take your chance looking for a job within the company. This was during the dotcom crash.

The best advice I can give you is to keep developing skills that are in demand. Keep building things. Keep networking. You will find something better even in tough times.

jp57 2022-05-24 21:28 UTC link

> I wanna know if during recessions recruiting slows down even for big profitable companies.

Yes, and they might lay people off. Hiring slows generally (and unemployment rises) during recessions.

For example, I was at Amazon in 2008-9 and their attitude was: "We think we'll be alright, but we're not taking any chances, so departments should expect to make due with their current staff for a while." Once the freeze was lifted we started hiring like crazy.

bussierem 2022-05-24 21:34 UTC link

Just to give you my own experience right now, I literally just accepted a new job yesterday after job hunting for 3-ish weeks. I had multiple job interviews, even more job interview requests.

I don't say this to brag, so I apologize if it comes off that way. I just wanted to give you what could be a cancelling-out anecdata point to your own experience. I wouldn't let it get you down too much. Keep hunting and keep applying, I doubt the recession will get to a point where NOBODY is hiring :)

If you need another job board resource, try out "Hired.com". Here's a referral link from me for it (full disclosure I benefit from you using this!):

[link redacted]

I found it to be an extremely effective tool for finding interviews, or I wouldn't recommend it.

I wish you all the luck possible on your hunt; Sometimes it's just that -- luck. Just keep perservering and don't be too proud to ask for help from anyone and everyone!

gregjor 2022-05-24 22:10 UTC link

Expect hiring freezes and layoffs across the board. Startups and companies that don’t show a profit may shrivel up. This happened in 2000 and got pretty bad before it got better.

Businesses in other sectors (not tech companies) rely on software so those jobs don’t go away. Not every sector of the economy is a rollercoaster like the tech sector. Some skills transfer better than others. I stayed employed through the 2000 downturn doing database work (Oracle) for enterprise logistics companies, for example. Away from the bleeding edge of tech you find plenty of jobs, although maybe not as sexy or fun as you’d like.

ChrisMarshallNY 2022-05-24 22:17 UTC link

I'm not surprised (unfortunately, and I am truly sorry for this).

Don't look to the 2008 recession for an idea of how things may go. Look to the 2000 (Tech Bubble Burst) recession. In that one, the bottom dropped out of the tech market. Web designers were especially hard hit.

I have family that works for Intel, and they say that Intel tends to actually increase hiring in bear markets. I suspect that's because they are getting bargains, and preparing for the inevitable upswing, so they will be in a position to jump on the up elevator when things turn around.

I guess it depends on the company. Companies that are running on fumes (highly leveraged) are likely to have a tough time. Companies with conservative approaches may do better.

michaelrpeskin 2022-05-24 22:18 UTC link

I bet the non-profitable, feeding-on-VC startups are getting worried and we'll see more of this. I work at a non-VC-funded, profitable, stable, small place and we're desperately trying to hire. I've never made FAANG/startup income, and I've always felt a little left-out because of that. But we've been stable for nearly 30 years, and have never had the big layoffs or hiring freezes including, dot-com bust, 2008, 2020 COVID lockdowns, and now. We're low variance, so the upside isn't as crazy, but then again the downside has been historically pretty limited too. My advise is to find a smaller, stable, profitable place to interview at.

edit: grammar

steve_adams_86 2022-05-24 22:23 UTC link

I've been interviewing as well, and plenty of companies have either gone totally silent or cited hiring freezes after very positive interviews and even some offers. It really burns to put in the hours and have things go cold, but I try to remind myself how much worse it has been and could be. It's alright to have to work a little harder at times like this.

I'm looking for much different roles than you are, so our experiences will differ. My advice for anyone would be to be persistent though. There's not much to lose by keeping at it and maintaining good spirits, but there's a lot to lose by giving up. You could be surprised to find that connections you make now are rewarding when the economy is looking better, too.

The job market isn't a reflection of you, and losing out on opportunities will be easier than ever, but not by any fault of your own. Give it time and do your best, and you'll find something.

Good luck, keep your head up!

ineptech 2022-05-24 22:33 UTC link

If you want to be recession-proof, get a job at a non-software company (or in academia, state/city government, etc).

In theory, "programmer" is the same job whether you work for a startup or the Minnesota Dept. of Transportation, but in practice they feel like completely different industries. In one, you can make fantastic money but the interviews are famously difficult, the culture can be borderline abusive, and layoffs are a way of life. In the other, the money is only pretty good but you leave at 5, the toughest interview question you'll get is "Please name three design patterns," and your job is mostly immune to macro trends.

scottlamb 2022-05-24 23:55 UTC link

> I hope some experienced people in the industry can give some hope and advice. Is demoralizing to find out I spent 4 years in school just to get into a really harsh job market. First pandemic, then recession? F...

Overall, I'd say relax a bit. You're still in a good situation. Recessions are hard for many, but software engineers were among the best off during the last one and I expect will be this time also.

> I wanna know if during recessions recruiting slows down even for big profitable companies.

I remember Google's recruiting slowed down in ~2008. [edit: 2009? Maybe not right at the start of the recession.] [1] So sometimes yes. On the bright side, it's rare for profitable large tech companies to lay off software engineers, so if you get in, you're pretty safe.

Even at startups, I don't expect a universal freeze. I asked an external recruiter (that is, someone who recruits for a variety of startups) a couple days ago about the present situation. She told me some companies she works with have done hiring freezes, others are still desperate to hire. There are opportunities. I'm not a good enough business person to give you solid general advice about which startups will be most resilient, though.

If you are good enough and/or persistent enough, my feeling is there will be a place for you in tech. (Even if, for example, you freeze up during coding interviews. Some companies do these, others don't. There's enough variety that you can still be okay if you don't have your sights set on a particular company.)

If you are not, there's almost certainly still a place for you as a software engineer in a stable, non-tech company or government position. Non-tech typically isn't as lucrative, but you can be comfortable. My feeling is many of these places have a tremendous need for just basic automation. Arguably more so during a recession, although they may not all realize this.

I started my career not long before the last recession. I didn't have any real existing savings to lose. Then I was earning far in excess of my needs and investing much of the rest in index funds (e.g. VTI) when stock prices were low. The recession ended and stock prices soared. I feel scummy saying this about many people's suffering, but the recession worked out well for me.

[1] Personally I think this was a mistake. They could have hired a lot of great people during this time. "Be bold when others are fearful." They had solid financial footing for hiring, and if nothing else, they could have put a fair number of folks on efficiency projects that would have more than paid their way in machine costs.

jedberg 2022-05-25 00:20 UTC link

I dropped out of school in 1999, and got laid off in 2001 at the start of that recession. I couldn't get a job in 2001 or 2002, so I went back to school and got scholarships to live off of, and graduated in 2003. Recession was still ongoing but I got lucky and had a friend from the first job help me get a job, but other than that, I wasn't getting a lot of interviews.

I had friends who were getting hired and then laid off just a few weeks later. One guy lucked out and got hired and fired with severance before his start date.

Job searching during a recession isn't fun. Going back to school with scholarships, if you can get them, is a good stopgap. You'll get money to live as well as extra education to make a stronger application when the recession ends.

Otherwise, work your network. Find friends who were lucky enough to get jobs and ask for referrals. Work on open source projects and try to make friends with the senior people on the project, who might like your work and get you a job.

iepathos 2022-05-25 00:37 UTC link

This is not the situation for any startups who have already secured funding with a decent runway for expansion. As a software engineer, you're living in a golden age for your profession. Most tech companies are offering significantly higher salaries and bonuses now than pre-pandemic. There are not nearly enough engineers to fulfill the needs of all the successful tech companies. Best advice I can give you is to make sure your coding skills are up to snuff. Use sites like leetcode or a book like cracking the coding interview to make sure your technical interview skills are top tier and you can get hired by any major tech company with a 120k-300k salary to start depending on the company and your skills. As far as roles, data and machine learning engineers are seeing the biggest jump in salaries upwards of $25k bump in last year or two. Good luck!

angarg12 2022-05-25 01:28 UTC link

I always get flak for this but here we go anyway: the key is to manage expectations in the short term.

First realize that the market you know is far from the norm. We were at the end of the longest bull run in history and the hottest tech job market in memory. These are things you can kiss good bye for a while: eye popping salaries with little experience, kombucha on tap and Prosecco Friday, headcount doubling every 6 months, 50% YoY stock growth...

Yes, your timing is bad and it sucks. Such is life. I graduated in 2008 into one of the worst economies in my country. Imagine living paycheck to paycheck working as a software engineer.

The good news is you have a few years of experience, so you are in a better position to weather this than a fresh grad. When the economy starts picking up again you'll be in an excellent position to take advantage of it.

This is a fact: big companies are still hiring and are very resilient. Deep pockets will take the chance to attract talent. Amazon still has a huge gap due to the great resignation and hasn't slowed down. Now is a good chance to join for a stable job during turbulent times.

This is an opinion: I truly believe many decacorns from the next generation will come out of this. The recession will clean up the undergrowth and leave room for the next rocketships to take off. Imagine being an early engineer at Google? that might be happening now. Of course the trick is to pick the right horse out of thousands.

What path you choose depends on your situation. If you want stability try big tech. If you want to play the lottery keep an eye open for startups.

dcchambers 2022-05-25 02:29 UTC link

> Is demoralizing to find out I spent 4 years in school just to get into a really harsh job market.

I know it doesn't make your experience any better, but this is *not* a harsh job market. Yes, some companies are pulling back/slowing down/pausing hiring, but there are still far more software jobs available than people to fill them.

> What companies or roles will be more resilient?

Those that are or can quickly become profitable. Most startups are NOT profitable because they chase growth at all costs. This may change as cheap and easy money dries up.

> And how as a SWE / tech industry professional, specially the ones starting their careers like me, can prepare?

Don't do anything different. You had one company pull out on you. That happens all the time for a multitude of reasons. Don't be discouraged. Apply for jobs at a range of companies, from start-ups to profitable SaaS companies to companies outside the typical "tech" wheelhouse.

vishnugupta 2022-05-25 02:58 UTC link

I graduated in 2001. I had an offer from campus placement in the summer of 2000. Things were rosy till March, April 2000. And then everything moved very fast, most of the offers were cancelled. I was utterly unprepared for this. I picked up pieces and went for the masters. About 18 month later I was in the middle of masters I got an email from the company saying they are honoring their offer.

2008 wasn’t that harsh for the tech sector. I was at Amazon. I was visiting colleges for campus recruitment, we were given reduced head counts to fill but nothing bad. And I don’t remember there being any mass layoffs.

Given this experience I would say the current downturn to last for about 18 months. Here’s what I’d do differently.

1. Always be on the lookout for opportunities. Even if you get a job offer don’t make plans around it.

2. Develop network your university alumni who are employed. Figure out ways of making yourself useful for them.

3. Internship or part time work is totally OK. You will be abreast of the ecosystem.

4. Learn macroeconomics and business cycles. We all are impacted by it. Whether we like it or not. So we might as well be prepared.

pcmoney 2022-05-25 03:42 UTC link

Everything slows down. Almost every CFO wants to be more cautious.

Some companies get more aggressive, since they want to seize the opportunity in the marketplace and possibly get talent for cheap. This typically has pros and cons for the employee.

However, during recessions is historically when the actually cool stuff is built. Find companies doing real things that generate cash flows and try to target them as best you can. Read their blogs, talk to their SWEs on social, build a mini-version of what they do if you. This isn’t just a time waste, suck-up effort, it actually helps you learn the sector of the industry you are interested in. Someone will think it is impressive.

NOTE: hacker news suggestions that “this will only impact those bottom 90% plebe developers” are bad and even if true would only be helpful advice for the top 10% (who typically aren’t on hacker news anyway)

WoodenChair 2022-05-25 06:48 UTC link

This is totally anecdotal, but earlier this month, in a two week period, I interviewed with 8 different companies. None of them pulled out or hinted they were pulling out. I wrote about the experience here:

https://www.observationalhazard.com/2022/05/my-experience-wi...

I bring this up to present a counter to your experience and encourage you to keep applying. While I'm doubtless many companies have/will pull back, there are also many that are continuing to hire.

Mo3 2022-05-24 17:20 UTC link

I agree 100%. I feel sorry for OP of course, but this is highly commendable, even if the threat of major recession turns out to be overestimated. This employer is acting in a fashion that shows high levels of social responsibility and moral value. Hats off.

mc32 2022-05-24 17:23 UTC link

I agree. In a previous recession I had an offer rescinded over a weekend. I’m glad they did because most likely as they had to reduce headcount during the recession Id have been on the chopping block --my then employer having been conservative in hiring didn't have to cut as much. also sometimes in times of expansion some hires are "luxury hires", nice to haves, but not must haves and can be the first to go.

Usually it’s recent hires and people who’ve been there a long stretch who get cut first, of course with lots of exceptions.

neoxone 2022-05-24 17:59 UTC link

You are totally right, I really appreciated their honesty. As mc32 stated, if I was hired, in case of recession as a recent hire I would one of the first ones to go. The PM asked me if I would like to get contacted in the future to continue with the process in case things get better, to which I replied yes. I'll keep an eye on them.

neoxone 2022-05-24 18:10 UTC link

Good point, definitely the demand for these jobs and our tech dependent lifestyle is completely different nowadays than 2 decades ago, that didn't crossed my mind... it really gives me a new perspective

Apocryphon 2022-05-24 18:17 UTC link

Yeah, you have to wonder how many people who were let go in Q1 2020 because of lockdown uncertainty were let go needlessly based on how tech rebounding in the following months.

FunnyBadger 2022-05-24 20:33 UTC link

In 6 months?? I can remember situations in the past where people were hired and then fired 2 weeks later because a contract was lost. Mostly in aerospace/defense industry.

mysql 2022-05-24 21:20 UTC link

Not sure about other places but MSFT recruitment just reached out to me today.

WWLink 2022-05-24 21:41 UTC link

This is what I really expect. Just like the oil companies that jacked prices up and then claimed record profits lol.

Ultimately I think this might be an around-the-block way to cut fat, get rid of remote workers, and a desperate attempt to try and take control of the job market again.

If the big companies claim the sky is falling and start laying people off and cutting costs everywhere, then everyone else is going to follow.

The evidence will be in earnings reports later on. If a company's executive management is crying wolf and then reporting record profits, well.........

jghn 2022-05-24 21:48 UTC link

You're right. We've only hit "not as good as it has been of late" phase. Also a lot of newer people have probably never experienced a bad job market, so even this is concerning.

It can get a lot worse. We'll see what happens, but there's good reason for people to be concerned about this happening. I think it's fine for people to be asking for advice on how to approach here.

flutas 2022-05-24 22:00 UTC link

I had a similar interview experience with Disney recently. Going so far as them telling me I would have an offer letter in hand within 2 weeks, followed by silence. When I reached back out to them they basically played dumb about it and said some phrase about how "their hiring needs are always changing."

cableshaft 2022-05-24 22:17 UTC link

Got my last job thanks to Hired. It was my first time using it, and I had a good experience. I'd use it again.

Main benefit of Hired is I could set my target salary ahead of time and the people contacting me knew and agreed to what I was looking for, instead of having to dig it out of the interview process elsewhere, and I still had about 10 companies reach out to me through there.

In comparison, pretty much every recruiter that contacted me on LinkedIn were giving me ranges at least 20% lower.

bob1029 2022-05-24 22:22 UTC link

> My advise is to find a smaller, stable, profitable place to interview at.

This is the answer. Our organization is tiny and works in an extremely boring niche - B2B banking consultants & related software shenanigans. We've been at it since the 90s.

If you adjust your expectations just a little bit (i.e. you are now OK using "boring" stuff like .NET/Java), you might be able to get something much more quickly than otherwise.

Regardless, the market has spoken and we must all adapt.

twblalock 2022-05-24 22:28 UTC link

FAANGs are slowing down and freezing hiring too. It's not just startups that are worried.

alar44 2022-05-24 22:39 UTC link

This is a great point. I work for a medical device manufacturing company. Times have never been better for us. There was a dip in the beginning of Covid, but after a few months we just started sucking up clients from companies that went under.

Joining that industry was a conscious decision I made because I want to work for a company that makes tangible things, not "just" software. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with "just software" but I find it's more interesting when you're making widgets and the software needs to interface with the physical world.

soared 2022-05-24 22:53 UTC link

I interviewed at Amazon a few months into Covid and they were interviewing but not hiring to put people in their “recycled” status. Which means we’ll hire you but not in this exact role or this exact time.

eikenberry 2022-05-24 22:57 UTC link

I'd recommend the opposite approach and go for stable software companies as the best employers. Non-software companies usually see software as a cost that is often at the top of the list when layoffs come up. IMO working for a software company means not only better treatment (eg. see the recent discussions on staff vs. line jobs) but you get better stability as you are core to the business.

None of this applies to start-ups which are volatile in every industry. But if looking at established players I'd 100% rather work for a software company or, more specifically, any company where the software is core to what they do (ie. SaS companies, hardware+software companies, etc. all are usually good).

wly_cdgr 2022-05-24 22:59 UTC link

Wholesome and sound advice!

TimTheTinker 2022-05-24 23:01 UTC link

I'm a dev at a VC-funded SaaS startup in California. We're still in a growth trajectory (doubled headcount last year, on track to do so again this year, just hit a headcount of 500).

Our industry is such that we're not too worried about the recession -- people tend to buy our product because it's significantly cheaper than paying one more employee and it tends to make teams in a particular corporate department far more efficient. When COVID hit, we had a surge in sales.

My last company (larger & much older) also tended to get increased sales when the market slumped. Their product is key to helping governments, utilities, and other companies operate more efficiently.

So there are still great startups (and larger companies) that are hiring. I'd suggest looking for ones that have a recession-tolerant market or business model.

grink71 2022-05-24 23:11 UTC link

I work at one of these companies and we're hiring https://activatedinsights.com/jobs/software-engineer-remote/

twblalock 2022-05-24 23:11 UTC link

> In one, you can make fantastic money but the interviews are famously difficult, the culture can be borderline abusive, and layoffs are a way of life.

These generalizations are untrue for a lot of companies, and for a lot of teams. Software companies, even FAANGs, can be very relaxed and comfortable places to work. It all really depends on the team -- and you can end up with an abusive boss in any industry.

Job security depends on the nature of the recession. In 2008 a lot of government employees in California (and probably other states) got furloughed without pay for a while because the state government basically ran out of money.

Also, the pay difference for software engineers at tech and non-tech companies is not small. It's at least 4X, often more. If you work at an established tech company for several years and you aren't totally irresponsible, you will be able to save enough money to live for a long time without an income -- even while paying a Silicon Valley mortgage.

UncleOxidant 2022-05-24 23:23 UTC link

> for an idea of how things may go. Look to the 2000 (Tech Bubble Burst) recession.

Agree. In aftermath of the .com implosion it took about 4 years for hiring to come back to a more normal pace. It was a good time to go back to school to do a Masters degree.

> I have family that works for Intel, and they say that Intel tends to actually increase hiring in bear markets.

Having worked for Intel and knowing folks still there, it's very much a mixed bag. I hear there are areas where headcount is frozen. But there are other areas where Gelsinger is investing heavily that are very eager to hire - in this case that doesn't have much to do with a looming recession (or not), it's that they find themselves behind in a lot of areas and they're spending to try to catch up.

wutbrodo 2022-05-24 23:27 UTC link

It seems like bigtech gets you both of these, right? More bureaucratic and stable than startups, less abusive than startups, more stability and salary than either startups or "Minnesota DOT"-type places.

ushakov 2022-05-24 23:35 UTC link

100%

and even better:

- focus on developing skills that are transferable, not unique to a particular project or companies

- work on your own projects, always, because when you're an employee you trade your time, mental space and your work for inflationary cash

you deserve better than this

bradlys 2022-05-24 23:44 UTC link

> I've never made FAANG/startup income

> we're desperately trying to hire

Do you wonder why people aren’t joining?

bradlys 2022-05-24 23:49 UTC link

Why do people really even try to compare FAANG/SV-companies with random government org?

In my experience and from talking to peers - random eng job in most parts of the country is less than or equal to $150k even for people with 10+ years. If you’re at FAANG with 10+ years - clearing $500k+ is reasonably accomplished.

Sure - one of those is markedly higher than the average random person in the US - the other is in the top 1% of household incomes off a single income. It’s markedly different.

cryptica 2022-05-24 23:51 UTC link

How is that a good thing? You can earn good money in 6 months. One time I took a 2-week web development job to stand in for someone who left for a holiday while a project was overdue. It was an interesting experience. I wish the economy was more like this; more unpredictable and more focused on deliverables than hours worked.

bigiain 2022-05-25 00:12 UTC link

> Look to the 2000 (Tech Bubble Burst) recession. In that one, the bottom dropped out of the tech market. Web designers were especially hard hit.

I wonder if it's gonna be mobile app designers/devs this time round?

tick_tock_tick 2022-05-25 00:25 UTC link

Biggest difference between now at 2000 is companies have real customers and revenue. 2000 was a completely different beast and conditions that set that off aren't anywhere close. Doesn't mean it can't get bad but 2000 is not the place to look for a playbook.

cwilkes 2022-05-25 00:28 UTC link

It’s coming up to June when MSFT does yearly planning and determining headcount so expect to hear nothing back or that they are in a holding pattern.

This happened to me last year and after asking around happens every year.

30944836 2022-05-25 00:34 UTC link

>had a friend from the first job help me get a job

This is the part of the story that OP needs to key in on.

OP: Network. Network Network Network. I've been at 2 FAANG in 7 years. I don't write code. I make good money. Friends got me jobs both times.

Do whatever you have to do to make friends with people in the industry where you want to work. Go to the bars they hang out in. Go to meet-ups. Go to lectures open to the public. Network on HN.

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