reikonomusha 2021-05-30 06:35 UTC link

I do not trust Amazon to ship anything safely and securely anymore. Almost everything I receive is damaged, late, or mis-delivered. Books are especially abused somewhere in Amazon’s fulfillment. (They’re always bent, creased, or dirty.) Items that are supposed to be 1-day shipping typically take >=3, and Amazon’s tracking mostly says “oops! it’ll come trust us”. (Not verbatim, obviously.)

Amazon’s return process is becoming incrementally more obtuse as time goes on. While they’re still decently good, it’s getting harder to do easy, no-nonsense returns. Typically—if they don’t just tell me to dispose of the item myself—they demand I drive to Amazon lockers or Whole Foods or Kohl’s to drop stuff off at no charge, and pressure me into just getting Amazon credit.

I would never buy a $7,000 item on Amazon under any circumstance.

Firehawke 2021-05-30 06:40 UTC link

Haven't had any problems with Amazon shipping, but I'm thinking I might need to record every unboxing just to make sure I can prove what happened the first time it DOES hit me.

Because it most certainly will, sooner or later.

cbmuser 2021-05-30 06:50 UTC link

> This was despite the fact that when boxed the Sony a1 weighs 3.22 lb (1.46 kg), and the Chiles’ package was listed by UPS as weighing only 2 lb (900 g).

Not sure why Amazon was still arguing at this point. If UPS confirms the package was basically empty, then Amazon has no reason to believe the customer was lying.

vishnugupta 2021-05-30 06:56 UTC link

As a rule I don't order from Amazon beyond a certain price point. I purchase from a physical retail store. First couple of years of Amazon in India was really good. Good collection, low prices and good customer experience. But as their orders and catalog has shot everything about them has become a shitshow, at least from what I've observed. Also they have significantly ramped up 3rd party sellers and given extremely high density of retail stores in India I might as well go visit those stores and cut out Amazon. If I run into problems I can "physically" visit a store and talk to someone; with Amazon I might as well have better chances of talking to God.

dstaley 2021-05-30 06:59 UTC link

This is certainly one of those instances where I'd raise hell, but I actually avoid trying to file lost item claims with Amazon for smaller ticket items. I know they have automated systems in place to prevent fraud, and I'm terrified that reporting for smaller ticket items will get my Amazon account banned. I've had a friend have this happen with his Doordash account; the sushi place he orders from a lot was pretty bad at sending everything he ordered, and after reporting this to Doordash every time, they eventually disabled his account. To this day, the restaurant is still on Doordash.

dawnerd 2021-05-30 07:01 UTC link

This is what chargebacks are for and even if you get banned over it for this much money I’d say it’s worth it, heck for 7k I’d take it to court. Would be an easy judgement based on the label weights alone.

marban 2021-05-30 07:03 UTC link

I've placed approx. 15k orders with Amazon Germany in 20 years and have probably had less than 100 issues, mostly with FBA sellers. I get an answer from CS within 10 minutes and 1-day shipments are on time ~98%. Refunds are issued as soon as I drop the package in the return box. Call me a fan.

The best experience is still Amazon JP but returns are a little more complicated (Even within Japan) — Obviously b/c you more or less do not return stuff in JP [Hansei (反省].

KingOfCoders 2021-05-30 07:21 UTC link

Happened to me with a phone. Lego can check the completeness of packages by weighting grams, Amazon can't check the weight of a package with a phone ? Only could solve the problem with the help of the police. Then they would not cancel the attached carrier contract (which does not make sense without the subsidized phone) because they said Amazon's systems can create contracts but not cancel them. Again only the police helped.

In the past I've got sent sometimes used electronics sold as new - recently I got 3 times used electronics as new in a row. Isnt that fraud?

marcodiego 2021-05-30 07:26 UTC link

I remember when PS3 was launched, some vendors announced "PS3 BOX", put the price around 10% lower than the real price and sent only the box.

veselin 2021-05-30 07:28 UTC link

I feel there is something universal about the phase in which the company enters and it is interesting to learn what moves companies in different phases.

Growing market, good press around, apologists for your brand, regulation and anti-monopoly scrutiny seems far away. Then the company is risk-taking, 7k$ that somebody occasionally may cheat is nothing in comparison to a possible blog post saying how awesome the company is. I think miraculously Apple is still here now, Google and Amazon were here 10 years ago, now AWS is here, Microsoft came here again recently, etc.

Then times come that bad press is there regardless of what you do, regulators watch you carefully. Then the user support becomes some scripts to follow, revenue over the next months (or launch before the next promotion cycle) is all you care about. Here I think how Verizon were super greedy and tried to milk the Droid brand within the 1st year, essentially killing it. I think the problem is once you enter this phase, it self-reinforces to stay here.

I have a theory why Google moved from one to the other and I have no view on the others, but at least here I think it was majority external factors not withing the company.

a3n 2021-05-30 07:37 UTC link

I order electronics from Newegg (which is starting to feel Amazon-like with third parties).

I generally use Amazon as a search engine to see what exists, look at reviews, then buy locally and physically if at all possible. Especially books, after they folded, spindled and mutilated too many books and their replacements.

odnes 2021-05-30 08:17 UTC link

This this a clear cut case and amazon should process the refund, however, in general refunding is a hard problem for Amazon to solve due to the sheer volume fraud that occurs.

For anyone unaware, go to telegram and do a public search for 'refunding'. There are hundreds of channels where you can pay someone to refund >£10,000 of stuff for you for a 10% fee. Afaik, the main method that 'refunders' use to defraud amazon is to (1) initiate a return (2) modify the return label so UPS accepts it into their system but (3) deliver it to the wrong address. So it looks to amazon as being successfully delivered to the return warehouse, but what actually got delivered was a brick, to some random house.

I wouldn't be surprised if >1% of macbook and iPhone refunds are fraudulent in this way. Someone in a cybercrime lab they should write a paper about this whole ecosystem because it is a huge black market.

cunidev 2021-05-30 08:35 UTC link

> Given the risks associated with buying online, some customers are resorting to filming the process of unboxing expensive gear in order to create proof in the event that an order has not been correctly fulfilled.

That is exactly what I do for every >300€ purchase I make online. Otherwise, refund without "video evidence" becomes impossible for the majority of platforms.

neiman 2021-05-30 09:11 UTC link

I used to live for many years in a "bad" area of Berlin, where my packages were constantly disappearing, not arriving, taken by neighbors (who put an X as a signature), or left by the delivery people outside our building door.

After a few such accidents, each of it super tiring on its own to get things reshipped or reimbursed (and often I failed), I decided all this modernity is not for me. Nowadays I rather buy whatever I can physically in a store, even if it's a bit more expensive.

But again, that's an experience from a "special" part of Berlin, not the standard one I guess.

ageitgey 2021-05-30 09:48 UTC link

Like most people, I've ordered a lot of packages (hundreds?) on Amazon and almost never had a problem. In the rare case of a problem, Amazon would instantly refund me. But almost all those orders are under $1000. Everything changes when you have a problem with an expensive order. Amazon has a price threshold where the support system is different and the normal CS people are powerless.

During lockdown, I ordered a Sony camera and lens that was in the $5k+ range. The package went "missing" with the shipper with obvious fake tracking data, like multiple "customer not home" delivery attempts timestamped at 12am in the morning. The packages never showed up. Amazon kept saying it was the shipper's fault and the shipper said it was Amazon's responsibility. Lots of tweets, etc, got me nowhere.

In the end Amazon finally refunded me, but it was a nightmare. They wouldn't even talk to me until I waited a number of days after the package was late and even then all they would say is that it had to be escalated to management who would review the issue eventually. Even when they finally agreed the package was lost, I had to wait for another management review to actually get the refund issued. They had my money tied up for weeks with no recourse for a package they never even delivered. I can only imagine how bad it would be if the shipper claimed it was delivered.

My recommendation is to skip Amazon for anything expensive or at high risk of shipper theft/fraud. Your customer experience will not be the same as when they lose a $10 package. They will treat you like a criminal no matter what your past history with Amazon is.

jeeva357 2021-05-30 10:27 UTC link

Amazon has different face masks for different countries even though Same Executives handle multiple countries. As far my interrogation with one of Amazon's customer care executives most the calls with language setting to English all over the world to amazon has been handled mostly in India due to cheap labor workforce.There customer care exectives has some base limit for refunds apart from which requires approval from Manager and authorised representatives after Investigations. However there are many allegations that the amazon is not treating with same level of gentleness to all other developing countries like India.

Vox media Podcast How amazon became giant and dominates the Indstry https://www.vox.com/land-of-the-giants-podcast

beezischillin 2021-05-30 10:41 UTC link

I don’t live in a country where Amazon operates but I do live in the EU. I’ve had good experiences with them regarding refunds and getting items the courier firm messed up with. I once ordered some stuff to the UK to a friend who shipped it to me with alongside some stuff from other places. My wait time for the whole package was a month due to this and when it arrived I noticed that one of the items I ordered was missing. I contacted them and they offered me a refund. I wasn’t expecting that!

Another time DPD messed up my package and never delivered it, they just shipped it again and it I finally got it. The only nuisance was the wait time.

That being said my trust for Amazon is at an all time low due to their marketplace listings. The discoverability has gone awfully bad, I generally end up searching for stuff elsewhere, researching stuff on Google and if I find something I need that’s only available through Amazon, then I have to and dig deep to see if it’s okay.

They simply allow through all sorts of dubious items, knockoffs and scams that clearly just ship from China. Whenever I can, I just order straight from smaller, specialty shops that deliver abroad, instead. It’s not an Amazon-unique situation, however. A local giant online e-tailer started a marketplace and they pretty much instantly started having very similar issues.

I still dislike having to spend lots of extra time just to not to accidentally buy something else instead of what I wanted. Frustrating, to say the least!

Waterluvian 2021-05-30 11:47 UTC link

I don't know how we ever got to the point of accepting that shipping is some equal third party in the transaction.

Shipping is a subcontractor to the company that sold the product. It is 100% the responsibility of the company to make right.

Imagine if you bought a TV at a store and they said, "want us to bring it out to your car?" And they did. And it got destroyed in the parking lot. And the company said, "you'll have to take it up with the parking lot parcel company. They don't technically work for us."

TheRealPomax 2021-05-30 14:49 UTC link

This sounds like what should happen, irrespective of the seller?

You can claim you got an empty box, but everyone's on the internet here, and pictures of an empty box with indignation as guide text gets you fake internet points on every social media site.

That alone isn't enough for any seller to take your claim as true until you take the necessary steps that come with "I've been defrauded", like filing that credit card dispute and police report. Which they did, after which Amazon accepted the dispute, so... where's the news angle here? "Store honours a $7k claim without questioning it" would almost be more newsworthy.

Vake93 2021-05-30 15:53 UTC link

Happened to me as well. I got a Asus ROG Strix G15 laptop on 13 May(this month) and upon clearance from Sri Lankan customs (where I live) the UPS agents discovered that the contents was missing. UPS notified me this and report this to Amazon. They(UPS) held the package with them and didn’t deliver it to me as it was empty.

Even in the commercial invoice the gross weight of the laptop package was just 1.81KG! The laptop itself weighs about 2.3KG!

When I connected Amazon support they basically said that the package was delivered and they did an investigation the the weights are correct as well.

The UPS has filed a claim with Amazon and Amazon is not responding to UPS even and insists I obtain a police report. I didn’t even receive the package. Shouldn’t UPS and Amazon sort this out?

We are under lock down due to COVID and I can’t go to a police station to make the complaint.

Now I don’t have the laptop or a refund…

This costed me about 1700 usd with shipping. It’s not a cost I can afford to just write off.

malwarebytess 2021-05-30 06:47 UTC link

Anything over a few hundred bucks is playing with fire. I bought an iphone through them (Amazon sold, not 3rd party) last year and had to do the same thing the couple did: chargeback on credit card. They refused to investigate and flat out accused me of fraud. Gee, maybe it's the low paid disgruntled employees from warehouse worker to contracted out Prime delivery guy stealing shit? Nah, it's the guy who spent tens of thousands at your business and you never had a problem with!

patd 2021-05-30 06:51 UTC link

I’m in Europe. Earlier this year, I ordered from Amazon Japan, the package arrived quicker than things I had ordered earlier on a European Amazon and it was insanely well packaged.

londons_explore 2021-05-30 06:58 UTC link

I have an always recording CCTV camera outside my door. I just unbox it in view of that camera, and then show the goods to the camera in detail.

Then any claims of missing/wrong/damaged goods go through smoothly.

Most security cameras don't have autofocus, so showing closeups of scratches doesn't work...

sneak 2021-05-30 07:02 UTC link

They're just following the script.

robk 2021-05-30 07:02 UTC link

This is not trustworthy. They dont really confirm at all. I've had them be off with label weight by multiple pounds before.

sneak 2021-05-30 07:02 UTC link

This isn't going to help with the cc dispute, or with Amazon. They're going to decide without any information from you.

Covzire 2021-05-30 07:03 UTC link

I bought a new 32" monitor about 2 years ago that when I unpacked it, it was clearly an open box item. The way it had been packed was extremely unprofessional, tape was haphazardly wrapped and twisted around the stand and cords and things that normally come in plastic bags weren't bagged.

They've been shipping the wrong items lately too, twice in the last year when I order something that has multiple selections like color, scent or flavor etc I'll sometimes get the wrong item sent. I've done more Amazon returns in the last 2 years than my previous 15 combined.

adimitrov 2021-05-30 07:08 UTC link

That's perverse. You shouldn't have to self-censor out of fear. The fact that Amazon (Doordash, Google, ...) can get away with just cancelling people's accounts willy nilly and they'd have no recourse is a gaping hole in regulations.

BTW, it's off-topic, but this right here is the among best arguments we can make for strong privacy, and against mass surveillance. If people are willing to swallow monetary damage out of fear to upset an algorithm that may cut back their privileges, imagine what happens to political free speech when you have to fear govt surveillance and black vans.

matsemann 2021-05-30 07:13 UTC link

Probably like in "The Rainmaker". Automatically deny every claim above $X. If there's a complaint on the denial, automatically approve or deny based on a new number $Y. Most people give up before you finally get a real human to actually check the case.

trulyme 2021-05-30 07:13 UTC link

That doesn't sound like a good strategy. If they are bad at fulfilling their orders, why would you care if they are also stupid and cancel your account instead of fixing their problems? They are not the only merchant online.

kristopolous 2021-05-30 07:18 UTC link

You can also get a nice YouTube channel out of it as well

gambiting 2021-05-30 07:21 UTC link

I'm genuinely surprised that people have such vastly different experiences with Amazon. I made 231 orders with them last year(lockdown....) And haven't had a problem with a single one. Couple times I wanted to return something they just refunded me without asking to send the item back. Everything arrives next day, always(here in UK anyway), and the customer support is stellar compared to literally anywhere else. Anyone who has ever had to contact Currys customer support should know what I'm talking about.

Like, I see all of these comments on HN all the time but I have the exact opposite experience - they just have no competition over here. I'm at a point where even if something is slightly more expensive on Amazon I'd rather buy from them as I know their CS Support won't try to screw me over.

paxys 2021-05-30 07:26 UTC link

While I get the frustration, I also don't understand the logic of continuing to order from a restaurant when you have frequent bad experiences with them. Is it really surprising that after a while Doordash just doesn't want to be in the middle of that relationship?

techdragon 2021-05-30 07:27 UTC link

I once got banned from a pizza place for this. I had some fussy eating friends and would order pizza, but they would frequently screw up orders like “no cheese”, sometimes even multiple times in succession, as in I’d order it, tell them they screwed up, they would send a replacement and it too would be screwed up… eventually I “wasn’t allowed to register any more complaints”.

glandium 2021-05-30 07:31 UTC link

Amazon JP got a little worse ever since they started having their own delivery, which is not great compared to Yamato or Sagawa, which they were using before (and are still using sometimes, it's not clear under what conditions). But the difference is almost at the level of nitpicking. When you're used to top-notch service, and you suddenly get a subpar experience, that's kind of disappointing.

speeder 2021-05-30 07:41 UTC link

Amazon arrived in force kinda recently in my country. My parents are amazed by it and started making expensive purchases...

And now are surprised at how shitty their delivery is.

The worst case was when they bought some medicine for their dog and a expensive screen to use in their business.

The dog medicine arrived on a friday, I was present and heard a car horn, went to check, and it was a random normal car, a lady climbed out, said it was a delivery. when I said I was son of the person that made the purchase, she just shoved the package through the gate opening and drove away, didn't even said hi or bye or whatever, didn't check my identity properly, didn't take a signature, didn't even tried to deliver the package safely, she almost threw it at me.

Then saturday my parents had a meeting with someone, and left, but on that day the city hall sent some workers to do some work on the sidewalk.

Seemly Amazon deliverd it to these workers, Amazon claims they delivered, and claims some dude we never heard of accepted the delivery, we believe the dude in question is some random city hall employee that was doing sidewalk maintenance.

function_seven 2021-05-30 07:43 UTC link

This is kinda funny. About 5 years ago or so, the prevailing comment was the opposite of yours. ("I go to Best Buy to compare widgets, then order the one I want on Amazon.")

But I'm in the same boat. A lot more often I'll find myself looking at things on Amazon's site, then seeking out the manufacturer's own site, or another retailer, to make the actual purchase.

I just don't trust Amazon anymore. So much rebranded Alibaba shit on there, or counterfeit hazards.

sneak 2021-05-30 08:04 UTC link

Bringing a civil suit against Amazon will cost you several multiples of $7k in legal fees.

bjeds 2021-05-30 08:09 UTC link

15k orders over 20 years is on average 2 per day or 750 per year. Is that a typo?

IshKebab 2021-05-30 08:15 UTC link

Me too but reviews on Amazon are starting to get very untrustworthy. Not because of fake reviews, but because of products that unexpectedly come with a "Give us a review and we'll refund £5!" card in the box.

The latest one I got specifically stated they didn't need a positive review (presumably to get around Amazon's rules?) but it's still a bribe even if it is via an implicit debt.

ruph123 2021-05-30 08:20 UTC link

Maybe the reason for this is more consumer friendly laws? In the EU you can return any* online/telephone ordered purchase within 14 days (among other laws).

*Exceptions are software, digital products, etc.

thedufer 2021-05-30 08:41 UTC link

That doesn't seem to prove anything at all? It's a 1.6 lb camera. Weighing in at 1.2 lbs short is either a bad scale or a lot of accessories missing, but it definitely does not corroborate a missing camera.

confiq 2021-05-30 08:59 UTC link

> So it looks to amazon as being successfully delivered to the return warehouse, but what actually got delivered was a brick, to some random house

but how amazon does not check the quality of the return? I mean, even if UPS confirms that the package arrived to right address, wouldn't someone from amazon warehouse check if the package is valid?

amatecha 2021-05-30 09:14 UTC link

For returns you have to print a barcode and put it in the box. You don't get your refund until they physically scan the code in the box. Maybe it's not standard everywhere, but this process has been around for some years now. If the package never gets to the return center, no refund would be processed…

detaro 2021-05-30 09:23 UTC link

Amazon DE at least consistently allows to ship stuff to a package locker (which are now really common in Berlin). Much prefer that for things that are not extremely bulky/heavy.

konha 2021-05-30 09:27 UTC link

Maybe give “Packstationen” a try? Most retailers in Germany reliably ship to these parcel boxes that can only be opened with a code that is sent to you via mail/text.

missedthecue 2021-05-30 09:27 UTC link

It really does surprise me how many people online claim have trouble with them. My experience has been essentially entirely positive as well.

dalai 2021-05-30 09:28 UTC link

In Germany you can also have them ship to a Packstation or directly to the post office - at least most of the time. This has worked well so far.

The only problem I had was that sometimes they drop them off at a neighbor even when I am at home. At least nowadays the name of the neighbor is printed on the notice they leave in the mailbox (and is also included in the email notification) so X instead of signature doesn't work - at least for DHL and my area.

colonwqbang 2021-05-30 09:29 UTC link

When I order stuff online, 95% of the time it goes to my local supermarket. They have a little post office desk. Then I just collect it the next time I go grocery shopping. They make you show ID when you sign for it, so it's never happened that it got stolen.

I find this super convenient and it has to be less expensive for the delivery service too. I just can't understand why door to door delivery is the norm in some countries.

To me it's just annoying when I get sent a UPS package.

nigerian1981 2021-05-30 11:38 UTC link

I’ve found my credit card company, American Express to be great for getting refunds in cases like this and always use my credit card for larger purchases.

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