flavor8 2019-01-23 17:46 UTC link

Zenni is very good. There is a slight difference in quality between them and the Armani Exchange glasses I got from an optician, but it's not significant. I got a basic pair of black framed rectangular nerd specs for $8 last week, and I'd happily wear them out.

Measure the frame of a pair of glasses that looks good on your face and then try to find glasses with those measurements on Zenni.

hirundo 2019-01-23 17:48 UTC link

I've been buying from a Chinese maker online, Zenni. They sell a pair with all of the trimmings for $120 that's about $400 at my optometrist's. I did not get a great fit on the first try, but did on the second, so that still saves around $160. And using the fitting for that pair I've bought three others that all fit well.

The worst part is the sad look in my optometrist's eyes when I say I'd just like the prescription please.

jawns 2019-01-23 17:50 UTC link

Reminder, if you're in the US, the FTC says your eye doctor must give you your prescription after your exam. If a doctor refuses to do so, they can face legal action and penalties.

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/blog/2016/05/buying-prescriptio...

That said, I don't think the FTC stipulates what information must appear on the prescription. Many docs leave off your PD (pupillary distance), which is a necessary measurement if you're buying online. Fortunately, there are a variety of easy ways to take this measurement yourself after the exam, although if you're really concerned about precision, you'll want the doctor's measurement.

And by the way, it should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Although the quality of eyewear available online can be comparable to what you'd get in store ... please don't think an online eye exam is an acceptable substitute for visiting an ophthalmologist in person and getting a comprehensive eye exam!

dawhizkid 2019-01-23 17:51 UTC link

Jins (Japanese company) in SF makes glasses on site in 30 minutes for < $100.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/jins-san-francisco-3

Also, this story seems a few years behind given the rise of Warby Parker to address this very problem. If the person who felt compelled to spend $800 because they actually did not think they had any other option then they are living under a rock and/or being scammed by their optometrist.

pugworthy 2019-01-23 17:54 UTC link

You want to know what's outrageously expensive, yet equally important for basic ability to function in the workplace and other situations? Hearing aids. Hearing aids are glasses for your ears. But compared to them, glasses are unbelievably dirt cheap, and basically fully covered by a lot of decent company insurance plans. Hearing aids? Not the case.

Imagine if glasses cost $2-3000 per lens. PER LENS. And your company insurance offered to cover some of it, but limited you to ONE PAIR IN YOUR LIFETIME. That's the policy of my Fortune 50 employer believe it or not.

Someone1234 2019-01-23 17:56 UTC link

No doubt discussion will turn to online optics (as it always does). The problem with online optics is the same as clothing: trying things on is important, and adjustments can only be done in person.

Last time we purchased Zenni Optical glasses we had issues, but none of which are Zenni's fault but rather inherent problems with buying glasses online.

The first issue was that the frames simply didn't look right/fit right/fall right even after using their photo preview to "try them on."

The second issue is that you're on your own for adjustments. What you'd typically do is at delivery have someone use a heat-gun and tugging to adjust how they sit. I had a heat gun, but was unable to adjust them to satisfaction.

Ultimately glasses and prescription sunglasses for $120 is very cheap, but there's issues with the whole concept, so we wound up just going to Costco instead. The Zenni ones sit in a draw as "backups," that is in spite of them doing everything they said they would do (i.e. prescription was spot on, frames were as-advertised, etc).

jandrese 2019-01-23 17:58 UTC link

Walk into any eyeglasses store and what do you see? Tons of designer labels on everything, labels that were clearly just sold to some third party outfit to slap on their frames.

As someone who generally avoids high fashion it drives me crazy to see all of those expensive and useless logos on everything along with $400 price tags. I'm glad to see all of these online outfits so ready to undercut them.

blackbrokkoli 2019-01-23 18:04 UTC link

Title correction: Why are glasses so expensive in the US? The American eyewear industry prefers to keep that blurry.

Please stop using the US as the "that's how it is"-standard.

In Germany, you pay a very reasonable (from my layman perspective) price for the lenses, maybe about 40$ plus another 30$ if you want to have non-reflective glasses or product from big name producers and stuff like that. Like every fashion product, frames start at a few bucks up to whatever you want to pay. Measurements, bending the frame are included in the service. None of this involves health insurance, as far as I know.

xchip 2019-01-23 18:12 UTC link

I was shocked that glasses cost as much as the lens of a DSLR camera, and glasses dont have all the moving parts and materials a DSLR lens have. I found some cheap glasses company on the internet and now I am very happy with the results.

tianmingwu 2019-01-23 18:13 UTC link

A few years ago I found a technique on youtube to help myopia by wearing slightly lower prescription glasses. And the author recommended zennithoptical.com for cheap glasses. I was almost shocked to find their price to be that cheap. And when I bought a couple of pairs, it turns out their quality is quite decent.

I have since bought more than a dozen glasses from zennithoptical.com, at a total cost of about $300. And by using the technique, the prescription on both of my eyes dropped by 1 (from -5.75 to -4.75). Unfortunately that seems to be the limit of that technique. But I was extremely happy to find a source for cheap yet good glasses. Now I have two normal prescription pairs for daily use like driving, two more pairs for reading (1 for backup for each).

So the cheapest way to get glasses now is to get a prescription at Costco (cost about $40), then just buy your glasses online.

interlocutor 2019-01-23 18:40 UTC link

The reason glasses cost so much is because one company owns: (1) nearly all brand name frames including Ray-Ban, Oakley, Prada eyewear, Armani eyewear and so on, (2) nearly all retail stores such as LensCrafters, Pearle Vision, Sears Optical and Target Optical and (3) EyeMed, one of the largest vision insurance companies.

See this eye-opening 60 Minutes story on Luxottica: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDdq2rIqAlM

Luxottica retail brands: http://www.luxottica.com/en/retail-brands

Luxottica eyewear brands: http://www.luxottica.com/en/eyewear-brands

Luxottica vision insurance: http://www.luxottica.com/en/node/6336

In the US, only Costco and Walmart's optical departments are independent of Luxottica.

justfor1comment 2019-01-23 19:28 UTC link

Have to share this related story. I recently got a new prescription and the glasses salesman at my optometrist said that my insurance is super generous and willing to pay upto $200 every year for new glasses, so I should definitely get a pair before the end of the year. So I looked around and picked a frame I liked. The salesman measured my PD and started offering me options on the lenses. Coat this, photo reflect that. I said no to every option that was offered since I know those will rack up the cost. In the end the salesman added up all the costs and said that the total will be $230. I was like that's great so I only have to pay $30 for them. But the salesman was like I already deducted your insurance payment in the calculation, the actual cost is $430 of which $230 you will have to pay. After hearing that, my eyes opened so wide that 20/20 vision was restored in them.

cryptonector 2019-01-23 19:37 UTC link

One word: protectionism. Nothing else can explain it. The U.S. healthcare system is rife with protectionism, and it's disgusting. From how hard it is to become a doctor, to how hard it is to build a new hospital (you need a "certificate of need" in just about all States to build one), to FDA regulations on drug manufacturing being extremely expensive, to too many drugs not being over the counter (thus requiring a trip to your general practitioner), it's all protectionism, all the time. On top of that we have huge distortions, like the non-insurance insurance schemes that have caused there to be no single public price for anything anywhere, thus destroying the single most important feature of free markets (price signalling). It's all a mess.

evarady 2019-01-23 19:44 UTC link

I'm Eric, the founder of Topology Eyewear. Our 3D face scan (via our iPhone app) is way more accurate than a standard pupilometer used in a Doctor's office (and WAY WAY better than a ruler or dots placed by a sharpie!). We solve for monocular PD, so no need to beg your doctor for this piece of info that isn't technically part of your Rx. Check it out at http://www.topologyeyewear.com or on the App Store at http://bit.ly/topologyapp I'm happy to answer here any optical or technical questions anyone has - just hit reply!

coldtea 2019-01-23 20:30 UTC link

>Reminder, if you're in the US, the FTC says your eye doctor must give you your prescription after your exam. If a doctor refuses to do so, they can face legal action and penalties. https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/blog/2016/05/buying-prescriptio....

That said, I don't think the FTC stipulates what information must appear on the prescription. Many docs leave off your PD (pupillary distance), which is a necessary measurement if you're buying online. Fortunately, there are a variety of easy ways to take this measurement yourself after the exam, although if you're really concerned about precision, you'll want the doctor's measurement.

The doctor will leave off prescription information on-purpose? WTF?

I'm not sure what bizarro system the US has with opticians and buying glasses...

On a trip in the US I broke my glasses. I had to get a replacement, but I was in rural country, and it was a weekend. Now, even though there were shops selling eyewear open, I couldn't just get a pair, because they wanted a prescription from a doctor (I think I went to a Walmart, whose doctor that takes prescriptions was off for the weekend among other places).

In my country you can get a prescription on the spot at any shop selling eyewear (perhaps our law dictates that any eyewear shop has an optician in employment -- but any assistant can also take a lens of your old glasses and get the measurements). In any case, a prescription test costs nothing, and you can buy single use contact lenses with that immediately, or get the glasses in a couple of days.

yonifrandzel 2019-01-23 21:33 UTC link

Ever wonder why you cannot get glasses made of glass anymore? (At least that’s the case in Israel).

Glass used to be a lot cheaper than plastic, more durable and long lasting. You rarely needed to replace them every year or two like with plastic, unless you really smashed your lenses hard and got a nasty chip.

All plastic lenses get scratched within a few years and your sight becomes gradually foggy until one day it dawns on you. “I can’t see anything!” - and then it’s time to renew the... What? The SUBSCRIPTION!? Sorry, the prescription. Right.

With glass that would never happen.

The repeated mantra I’d always get from the optometrists is that glass isn’t sold anymore because it can shatter and splinters could get into you eyes.

I don’t know about others, but I’ve been hanging on to my glass pair for over 18 years now, not a scratch or a chip or anything, and they are on a half frame! And I’ve done sports with them too... maybe not the smartest thing to do, but I will not give up seeing cristal glass clear!

At one of the optometrists I used to go to where they’d sell me plastics I discovered they would use acetone to clean the glasses. Yes, acetone, which eats the plastic away. Something to make your subscription a little more often. I’m Never going back there.

What’s funny is that my glass pair has lasted so long they have gone in and out of fashion multiple times now.

I really wish they’d bring back the glass. I’m in the off fashion period now.

mancerayder 2019-01-24 01:58 UTC link

Contacts are even worse. Did anyone notice that online vendors in the US like the 1-800 one were well cheaper, and now somehow they all have the same pricing? And that a special contact lens check is required, at a separate price, to get a prescription for contact lenses renewed, even if the script is the same for glasses and contacts, and you just did the glasses? And that while you can buy 100 years of contacts, the script is only valid for 12 months on the dot? Oh, and you can't resell your unopened box of contacts on eBay or anywhere.

Regulations are good but these laws in the US are very cartel-y. I remember in the UK in 2012 or so I could order as many contacts as I wanted with no script, no questions asked, online.

Solar19 2019-01-24 01:59 UTC link

Whenever we see an apparent monopoly or a confusingly high profit margin, we should immediately look for barriers to entry. Situations like this are usually explained by the existence of a racket with government-enforced barriers to entry.

Optometry is a licensure racket with strong legal barriers to entry. The sale of glasses is ostensibly a separate business without the same barriers, but I suspect it rides on the coattails of optometry's racket. I think there's an inertia tie between the eye exam and the purchase of glasses.

The cleanest way to end this nonsense is to break the optometry licensure racket. Think about what optometrists actually do. Think about all your eye exams and the whole "1 or 2" procedure as they flip through lenses. Honestly, most adults could probably do that job and produce a correct prescription after maybe a week's training. I'm not saying they're inherently bad people or anything, and I like my optometrist, but it's a racket just like realtors, lawyers, and other guilds that use the law to prop up their prices and reduce competition.

There's at least one startup out there that wanted to do eye exams through a specially designed web app. Expect the optometry racket to lobby hard against this, just like taxi rackets tried to stop Uber. And there ought to be companies offering cheap glasses online any second now...

intertextuality 2019-01-24 06:01 UTC link

My experiences in the US in 2015 and prior:

* Took exams, but didn't receive PD (pupillary distance). Had to take another exam and specifically ask in order to receive that.

* Frames from most places except Walmart were disproportionately expensive, and walmart's styles... were lacking. Only select styles were reasonably priced.

* Nowadays my family in the US uses Warby Parker. Last time I used it the prices were reasonable, one just needed their pupillary distance measurement and an eye exam taken within one year.

* For both Warby parker & brick and mortar shops, you had to wait for the new glasses to come in.

* The process for contacts was better, but still quite expensive. I had to drive to the eye exam so I couldn't do the enlarged pupil process.

My experience in Korea in 2018:

* I walked into a random glasses store, picked out a pair of frames, gave my old glasses to the clerk in order to scan them, waited 10 minutes, and then walked out with thin, good-looking, strong-prescription glasses for $80. Couldn't have been easier or more straightforward.

* This year I plan to get contacts to see what the process is.

dirktheman 2019-01-24 07:27 UTC link

Expensive? I have astigmatism, top notch lenses with blue light filter and a slight varifocus (Eyezen, highly recommended for screen work) and a designer frame. This was a rather expensive purchase (around 350 euros) for me, but since I'm behind a screen a lot it's worth it.

Also, I bought these glasses at my local glasses store. I get headaches whenever my glasses aren't exactly centered or straight, so in a typical year I come in around 10-15 times to adjust them. They give me great service all the time, always cleaning the glasses and replacing screws/nose pieces for free. When I got theses glasses the lenses were replaced two times (I had transitions, didn't like them, and I got headaches from the second pair because my brain couldn't get used to the new astigmatic values), also without additional costs.

Buying glasses online is fine, but since I rely on my glasses every waking hour and require a lot of service, I'll keep buying them from my local shop. Probably not the most economical way, but 350 euros every couple of years isn't that shocking, either.

themodelplumber 2019-01-23 17:57 UTC link

I have had good luck with Zenni, but I know others who have not. For example, a friend of mine unknowingly picked a coating that seemed to make his lenses appear slightly yellow. It was borderline visible so he kept the glasses but later regretted it. Another friend used his cotton T-shirts to wipe his lenses free of dust, and quickly filled them with scratches. I personally EDC lens cleaning cloths now because I nearly had the same issue.

There are also so many options in checkout now (as of a week ago) that if you don't know what you're doing you can easily overspend or buy an add-on that alters the look of your glasses when they are seen as lenses and frames together.

Aside from that though, they are amazingly convenient.

fma 2019-01-23 17:58 UTC link

Did my vision exam last week at Costco. The Costco optometrist is independent from the eye glass department, which is owned by Costco and you need a member ID to buy from. The prescription had PD on there.

When I used to do target or lens crafter... I had to ask.

wlesieutre 2019-01-23 18:00 UTC link

They also can’t require a membership to get an eye exam, so if you don’t want the pressure to buy glasses there, Costco is a safe bet.

They’ll give you your prescription and literally wouldn’t sell me glasses even if I wanted them, since I wasn’t a store member. I did have to measure my own IPD though, which I did with a ruler and a mirror.

EDIT: another reply notes that they did get their IPD at Costco, so this might vary by location. As they mentioned, the optometrists are independent.

cableshaft 2019-01-23 18:00 UTC link

That's part of the reason I get my main glasses from my eye doctor, and then computer glasses or sunglasses from a place like Zenni. I don't care about how I look in them when I sit in front of a computer or in a car.

In fact, I have a wide head, and I've had better luck getting frames that don't squeeze into the side of my head through Zenni than anything I tried at an optometrist's. I basically just went with the widest pair offered, which they provide measurements for on Zenni, where I have to try each and every pair almost in person since they don't show those measurements.

chefandy 2019-01-23 18:02 UTC link

I've had consistently excellent luck with Zenni. The key is considering measurements beyond simple pupillary distance, such as temple length and frame width.

themodelplumber 2019-01-23 18:02 UTC link

My wife was an office manager at an Audiologist's office. She has some crazy stories about that. Unfortunately, lots of people who don't hear well also shout all the time. Just part of doing business. :-) (Edit: She corrected me. SHE had to shout all the time.)

Also, many people purchase hearing aids and then never wear them, because they can't stand the "new" influx of noise and most of it doesn't seem necessary or even desirable. So they effectively spend the money and then feel ripped off, in a sense. Or their spouse, who paid for the hearing aids and basically feels like they burned up thousands of dollars for nothing, is very upset.

munk-a 2019-01-23 18:09 UTC link

Hearing aides are also insanely cheap to produce, they are not complicated devices and that market is only surviving due to the medical device status of them causing a high barrier to entry.

bunderbunder 2019-01-23 18:11 UTC link

Nit: An optometrist is usually fine if all you need is a refraction.

It's when you're dealing with something that requires medical intervention (glaucoma, pars planitis, etc.) that you need to shell out for an ophthalmologist. An optometrist can still catch that stuff, but will need to refer you for treatment.

traek 2019-01-23 18:12 UTC link

It's a US newspaper. Do you also ask the German media to specify Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel in every headline?

slowtokyo 2019-01-23 18:14 UTC link

Jins is great. I only buy eyewear there.

uf 2019-01-23 18:14 UTC link

70$ for glasses in Germany? I have to pay about 200€ per glas. Maybe weaker glasses are cheap. After all you can buy glasses in the supermarket for a few bucks.

Those modern glasses get scratches after just a few years of careful handling and cleaning only with „Mikrofaser“ in my experience. No fun having weak eyes in Germany.

notus 2019-01-23 18:14 UTC link

Well it's a US site that talks mostly about US companies, US tech industry, and other US things. Talking about other countries is more of an exception to the rule than the standard (when discussing things where a country might come up). The article itself is a US newspaper with a largely US readership.

Void_ 2019-01-23 18:18 UTC link

Is this technique a real thing?

Can we get an expert's opinion?

sftwds 2019-01-23 18:25 UTC link

It doesn't hurt to ask! The last time I got my eyes examined was at some cheap lenscrafters-type store which had a promotion for 2 pairs of glasses and an eye exam for ~$60. The PD wasn't on the prescription, but the doctor made the measurement after I asked about it.

There was a very limited selection of glasses that were available for the 2-for-$60 promotion, and they really tried to upsell me to more expensive frames and lenses. Luckily I was able to resist their sales attempts and bought a nice frame and lenses from Zenni Optical. I keep one pair of the cheap glasses at my office and the other in my car.

As an aside, being able to get inexpensive glasses online has been a huge improvement on my life. I remember growing up when I only had a single pair of glasses (and a "backup" which were with my previous prescription). I had to be very protective of my glasses, and getting a scratch on the lens meant that I was stuck with it until my prescription changed. Now I can get my favorite glasses from Zenni for $25, so I have backups if the lenses get scratched or the frame get bent. I also have prescription sunglasses for the first time! No more dorky clip-on shades!

NickBusey 2019-01-23 18:26 UTC link

For anyone curious, the actual link is zennioptical.com

Jemaclus 2019-01-23 18:28 UTC link

Yes, this is true. I'm actually fortunate in that I'm completely deaf in one ear and "only" profoundly deaf in the other. That means I only have to spend $3000 instead of 2x that. It's ridiculous. My hearing aid is 6 years old and I'm sure it's about to fail, but I can't afford a new one right now. It's absolute insanity.

ThirdFoundation 2019-01-23 18:28 UTC link

I personally had a great experience at Warby Parker. I probably saved $200-300 and didn't feel pressured to buy anything.

demygale 2019-01-23 18:30 UTC link

Zenni is amazing. At less than $20 a pair, I can buy new every month. Everyone in my family uses Zenni and I get compliments on my glasses all the time.

rootusrootus 2019-01-23 18:31 UTC link

The original article too long for you to get through? ;-)

The company that basically owns the entire eyewear industry top-to-bottom is Italian. Just merged with a French company.

I know it's popular on HN to talk about how crappy the US is, but in this case you jumped to the wrong conclusion.

umeshunni 2019-01-23 18:41 UTC link

I just use a 50 f/1.8 lens instead of wearing glasses. Problem solved.

dreamcompiler 2019-01-23 18:42 UTC link

They're very reasonable in Japan too. If you visit Japan, bring your eyeglass prescription. There are lots of stores in Tokyo that grind their own glass that are not owned by Luxottica. This is how I got the best (and cheapest) pair of glasses I've ever owned.

wuliwong 2019-01-23 18:50 UTC link

I've been wearing glasses for over 25 years, the last 5 or so years I've been buying them from Zenni and it has been great. The best pair of glasses I've ever owned were about $25 from Zenni. I used to wear contacts a lot more until I got that one pair from Zenni. Now I wear contacts a few times a month.

I had to get a new prescription, so I went to a Walmart. After, they said that they could replace the lenses in my Zenni frames. It was going to cost me $180-240 just for the lenses!

I have never researched the economics of all this but there is an option for cheap glasses in the US that anyone with access to the internet can use. I wonder why people are still paying so much?

The conclusion from the article:

>Why do glasses cost so damn much?

>Because this industry has been getting away with fleecing people for decades.

That's all well and good but the fact that there ARE cheap options out there still begs the question, why aren't people using them?

patorjk 2019-01-23 18:56 UTC link

This kind of blows my mind. A few years ago when I went to the eye doc, they refused to give me my prescription, I had to buy glasses from their store in their office. Last year when I went, they gave me my prescription at the end, without me asking. It felt really nice and at the time I figured they were doing it to create a better relationship with their customers. Now I wonder if someone knew about this rule and reported them. Kind of curious how long it's been in effect.

wuliwong 2019-01-23 19:00 UTC link

Sure for some people this is important but many people purchase loads of clothing online as well as glasses. For me, not being able to try it on vs. not having to goto a shopping center is a tradeoff I usually accept with a smile. Luckily the market can still provide solutions for both options. I believe Warby Parker is continuing to build more brick and mortar stores.

jstarfish 2019-01-23 19:00 UTC link

> If the person who felt compelled to spend $800 because they actually did not think they had any other option then they are living under a rock

...or they have really bad astigmatism.

Those lenses are not cheap and are usually excluded from 2-for-1 deals and other sales. Short of Lasik (which itself cannot always correct it) there really is no other option.

> being scammed by their optometrist

They also do that when it comes to frames, and it's really obvious.

The cheap/covered-by-insurance rack is usually a single rack in the back of the store, nondescript, and only mentioned if asked about.

After an eye exam the clerk will run your insurance, see what the coverage limit is, and guide you straight to a designer rack at an appropriate price point (unless you express interest in something more upsellable).

wuliwong 2019-01-23 19:01 UTC link

Walmart wanted to charge me $180-240 just to replace lenses in my frames. Even without a brand name it's still expensive!

gwern 2019-01-23 19:01 UTC link

One word: Costco. The hearing aids alone pay for decades of membership fees.

dwighttk 2019-01-23 19:10 UTC link

I guess I'm just not picky. The very first pair I got off Zenni (for $5 shipped) were a little irritating to wear because the frames didn't have spring temple arms. Now I just make sure and sort those frames out and I've had zero issues with them.

Fins 2019-01-23 19:30 UTC link

Aren't they now EssilorLuxottica and also control a good chunk of lenses market as well?

hart_russell 2019-01-23 19:45 UTC link

Hallelujah it's a miracle!

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